State of Devs 2025 Results

developer ninja at some point. You know? Like, that's what when I started in the industry, job titles were all like, we need a web dev wizard. My first job title as a developer was an interactive producer, So forty four percent of us fall into this 30 39 year old, and I say us because I fall into this right here, unless I believe you do too because I think you're younger than me by it. Lisa I am I'm just asking chat g chat g p t how old I am, because I never know how old I am. I'm that old.

by income

like, go for walks and all that stuff. To me, that helps my brain decongest, my first dev job, I made 36.

Oh. My own stuff. My yeah. Mine is because of concussion.

Figure out your sleep. Something lighter here. Hobbies.

you can apply for jobs,

like, comp and all the Yarn, and if you get part of the company. Yeah. Well Yeah. Location regular users want the all holy algorithm that will shovel them the

thing. Because Yes. 83% in Colorado

is over twice the over twice the salary.

and I don't wanna have to do any of the small talk or whatever. I do like the ability to roll over to someone's desk

Previous surveys. It looks like a lot of people have done previous surveys. 72% of people gave no answer for this. The source, state of devs. Hey. Josh Komu. He's on Blue Sky. So, for the most part. Movies I'll actually see on this list, I will see Anora.

Maybe just obviously, nobody

Why are you doing this to me? I don't know anything of its answers. Puts in the most hours? And Yeah. The fiftieth percentile JS, like, a 120,000, Century office and and beyond. So I've been lifting myself since, like, 2015, which is how I got so muscular and and handsome.

I, I've been trying the standing thing, and I I tweeted about it. And people had some pretty good tips on on how to get better. I just cannot

7%

It's kinda just oh, that's what I was gonna say really quickly is that I'm trying the standing thing again.

But, yeah, I I was surprised by full full or even, like, technical lead chart, front end engineer.

across the board in terms of percentages. There's like like you said, the outlier Brazil only, like, makes sense when you look at there's only a 120 respondents.

Imagine Dragons is like dad rock.

So very happy. Where if you compare that to remote work is Right? But I'll run my mouth about it. Yes. So that that's that's kinda my situation as well. If I, yeah, if I can't if I can't provide actual help, I'm not talking, trash. Yeah. Thirty one percent have financially re supported open source projects, This is a ESLint interesting, but at the same regard, it does look pretty even It's not I don't know. Just because there's the most amount of respondents in The USA.

Why is there no answer for this one? You could can't you tell what browser people are using? I don't know. 36%

I have a job title now. My my job title What is it? Is executive physical activity. Well, people just don't call it the hobby.

Dad rock for sure. I I cannot imagine rock. Responding Imagine Dragons to a survey like this.

If you all have Oh, we've got some of those too. Yeah. Man, I'll just devalue these. These are great for the airplane.

Yeah. I guess I'm surprised to to see how high the strength training is. 36% I didn't. It really It's like a family base camp that I set up. We're way more, especially for, like, obviously, a very heavy web development audience that this survey has. 8% are are slinging a little bit of Rust.

Syntax FM on YouTube.

Where's the The Last of Us? Yeah. I I would rather play the video game. I don't need to see a TV show of that. Yeah. Put a TV on my watch. I don't know. Top Chef, I I think that's not, like, ideal number, but that's a high number from generally what you Node, you're relying on people to open up their wallets or companies to open up their wallets.

office culture.

not super pretty.

Radiohead, I love Radiohead.

I don't know, mid mid twenty Oh my god.

They're perfectly airplane snack. I'm just gonna Assistant. Bear back a couple of them.

up to the employee. So you can go into the office or you can go remote. So if you were surprising to me. Up to the employee, of people using macOS, 28 on Windows, 15

It is interesting, though.

So that sincerely worked.

And then I got a substantial bump in my third job. And

No. I I agree. I think Android is is really cool. I would love to be able to switch to it. I'm just I'm just too far in. I'm too far in. But I don't know. We're seeing a we're seeing a wave of people move off the Mac lately.

company?

Chat GPT says Scott Tolinski is 38 year old years old because he refers to himself as having entered the advanced age of 38.

out there. Now granted, there's a lot of us that are. So some of you might not, you know, understand the the range here, but that to me is one of the big big things I see. You Node, five to nine years is when it starts to open up where people are making 6 figures getting into $114,000.

I'd put Japan as one of the lowest.

The people who would respond bash on the survey. Yeah. That is true. Type of person.

So I think we're stuck here. Programming languages, number 83%

Oh, no. But it does say that Zero. I'm unemployable snowball sampling, daily Deno.

You know what? Rust, 8%. I'm surprised it's that many folks. Honestly, I you know, Rust has had a hype moment, but, like, how many people are really using Rust day to day? That's

That's a lot, which is great. A lot of us I would say that's that's good as well. Like, that's Yeah. A significant half of the people that took the survey

for income of all respondents is $30,000 Because most people averages fiftieth percentile JS 40 across the board. So it's not really like there's a ton of variation here. I do wanna highlight real quick on workplace perks. The number one most responded thing is relationships. Oh, good relationships with coworkers. I thought that just said relationships with coworkers. I was like, We went to Hawaii. I did have like, this was a kid's vacation we had planned for a long time. I did have twitches on the vacation. I've had twitches since we've come back, but you know what? I had no twitches yesterday. I had no twitches today so Yarn. And

but I've never seen that as a call myself. That's interesting. If if when people ask me what to write on, like, a conference badge

bump in my second job.

Not really. I always just say

Oh, that's so funny. What a perk.

per year.

That concussion took a massive toll on me. I had a ton of major issues from it. I was averaging about two hours of sleep a night for about a month and a half, which then turned into kind of a hellish experience of full body muscle twitches. I was averaging

crashes and someone dies, super high. LinkedIn, super high.

of respondents

Okay. I've seen five.

From Nature's Garden.

that most developers were either on Blue Sky or Twitter. Wouldn't wouldn't you?

You're at Deno. Or if if you count how many companies I've worked with, it's probably 10 times. Okay. Well, nobody's counting that. How many companies you worked for? How, you ever been salaried, w two'd, at a Zero. Company? the past twelve months.

and walking, hiking is by far the highest in an unrelated field. Oh, that's neat. You're an unrelated.

what stands out to you at this on this chart? It seems like the tenth percentile I think that's like, paddle paddle. Call it Padel.

have submitted issues or bug reports, which is very funny,

State of developers who moved into management.

people group. Yeah. Had that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Me too. But that's mostly because of children, not because of

Yeah. Alright. Devs, what what phones do they use?

and Sweden Yeah. On that ESLint, but Instagram,

in a row that I have had since my accident Wes I did not have any singular muscle twitches. Wow. So I was gonna ask you. So that that worked, tens, like, 2015 or something. I don't I didn't even know that people got the because I was just always web I was almost a, Years of experience

thirty eight? I I thought France

Electronics as a hobby. I I I don't Node. If we're talking about tech here, I don't think you can say electronics are your hobby. Folks, the workplace, hobbies, Chapel Node, not really surprised about that. That album was great. Lady Gaga, I am surprised.

And let me slop through five different things that I don't care about before you give me something that's like, oh, this is kinda interesting. Community contributions.

about

I would have thought Twitter would be much higher

We're well, maybe they call it football. Yeah. 1% into dancing. Where's my dancing, folks? I'm a dancer. That's what I do for fun. So What is Padel,

Kinda fun to go through that and see how everything

people 70% use CSS, 69, nice, use HTML.

it's like me on computer. I'm on computer. That's People like I mean, who are, like, soldering in, like like, ESP 32 microcontrollers.

salary bump just by quitting one job and starting another, and you probably would not get that $40 salary bump staying at the same company.

Cool. Hey, Kevin Powell, who joined us on one of our CSS battles. Alright. That's it for today. That is a Scott of devs 2025.

Cool. Alright. Thanks so much for tuning in, and we will catch you later.

Notion, Asana, ClickUp, man. Okay. Linear. Yeah. A lot of people are using linear, but mostly small companies. 37 signals one that we used years ago. Basecamp, who the responders are. Here's this. The median age of RSS feed users is 40,

has been laid off just yet in Australia, it in in probably, like, eight, ten years or something like that. When Google Reader Wes shut down, containing engineer

degree that

Safari.

I I never dang used this. I yeah. I would I would, like, Master sometime before if you'd like or pseudonym or whatever on our potluck form. Just Sanity, Anan, just say mental health, say this is for Courtney, whatever.

And then By percentage. But only a 139 That was part of our deals. I got a fancy job title. So I've I'm an executive producer, So maybe maybe that's in our future as well. I I don't see that happening to me. Yeah.

It's changed.

now they're the youngins.

I passed all the tests. If I was a football player, they would The brain. Node back in. Your brain is still in there? The brain is still in there. The concussion is not still in there. It's gone. Oh, good. It said it said, see you later.

one crazy stat is that the average salary difference between job titles

if you can get those big jumps, that's a good opportunity to take those jumps. Now that second job,

RSS just makes so much sense still, but I just have not

Linkin Park. Taylor ESLint, how is Linkin Park number one? How is Linkin Yarn? This? but I think you you you try to tick pick the opportunity that's going to be the safest long term for you and and have the the greatest value jump. To me, that has always been the thing. If and if I'm moving to this job, what's the likelihood I will get let go? Now one of my big jumps came with a

the long term of anything here? But Yeah. Yeah. If you go to country, Australia has no layoffs in the last twelve months. How many respondents? 200 respondents? 100. It's

Surprise. Fundamentalheads.

I don't know that you would be liable. But if you're an engineer

given the context of some of the conversations around the Internet you know, issues or problems at work or with the stuff I'm trying to do. I also like that feedback. So I I do I do wish there was a a Colorado Denver office for me to just stop on in and hang out. And then, like, days I'm recording, stay here or whatever, I I would like that. I don't know why. Yeah. Bad idea. The one thing I don't like is that I can go from I'll tell you what kind of camera,

And I think that it's partially because of, like, teamwork and whatever, but I do think it's that a lot of people are just dicking off at Node. And, like, doing laundry and stuff. Wes do you what do you think? Yeah. I don't wanna, like, I don't wanna throw shade on remote work. I remote work remotely.

a a hobby for a lot of people who get into web development. There's a high correlation between people who build,

I didn't really like the second job. So even though I got a good bump from it, I didn't really like the job. So that's why Yeah. The third job was really great. Got another bump there. But that was my last

supporting of I'm not not not gonna make you do that.

Israel JS also up there. Canada,

from my typical location, Chrome. 14%

But I also I don't like

just go to blogs. I was just typing in csstricks.com.

And The Office, obviously, everyone's seen The Office. Yeah. Seen all three of those. And then I also saw an episode of Black Mirror, and then I did watch Severance for the first season. I've not put on the second season.

would that deter

It's small dosage, not what you would take as an antidepressant.

Let's not myself lately.

That's probably what that is. Yeah. No. I get that. Or people who are, like, into Discmans.

And I I had gotten raises here and there, whatever, but the big, big jumps always came from finding a new job.

I don't know.

used

working in tech because would you go into the office ever if the office was easy to get to? Hybrid

Alright. I did my count. What are you at? Four.

I had the card in my back pocket of level up tutorials to be like, you know what? I really wanna do level up tutorials full time, and the salary bump is going to give me a nice runway to be able to pursue that. So if, let's say, the project does end, I then get to pursue my project full time, and that's actually ended up what happening. So there's that. There's a lot of factors here beyond just jumping jobs. But every every job jump I had, I I think I I Node the right choice.

just be prepared that this product or project could fizzle out. And that was a conversation we really had to have. Like, I just think being around people in general enough,

But in Canada, that that term of engineer is, like, a legally binding one. And the I don't know if this happens in The States, but when you graduate 36%

I've contributed code to open source projects, 48%.

Yeah. I know for me, it's it's I feel like my day is so, like, clustered down with different things. It's like, alright. You finally have an opportunity to grind on some code. It's four to five. I gotta get as much done as possible in this hour. Yearly income,

like, very well? Yeah. But, like, I mean, like, I would assume on the survey are using Blue Sky than Twitter, and that just goes to show how much Twitter is just nerfing anything No. I got no health issues.

Yarn pass. Hard pass.

a year, where the ninetieth percentile is a $175,000 61% of video games. I've been playing a lot of video games myself. Wes, how about you? things and we're gonna learn a lot about developers use JavaScript, 75% who has never used RSS for anything, really. I've for podcast. That's it. I've never used it for anything. I never really did Google Reader or whatever. No. I had CJ, like, telling me about RSS, and I was just like, Germany high. I don't know.

always came from finding a new job.

And then over thirty years, the fiftieth percentile is thousands

So, Scott, you have to guess which race gender crossover is the most on Linux. So at a $175,000.50

So 8% of folks during the past twelve months have been laid out. That's 656 That knocked me out

Yeah.

Nintendo, but I don't play that very often. You have a 61%,

Obsidian is somewhat high here. I always don't think about Obsidian as being like a, you know, a big big place, strawberry yogis.

and those containing developer is $44,939.

on Blue Sky and Twitter, but Twitter just tanks

doing great stuff, finding all your errors and fixing your code for you or helping you fix it yourself. It's the best. Alright.

would like to think.

56% And France,

So a lot of people think that everybody in tech makes a billion dollars, you know, whatever.

This podcast is sponsored by Costco Yogis.

Android, 53% spend some time on a beach, and I've calmed my nervous system down. I I kid you Node. My doctor asked me to spend time,

reading.

environment, I took some good time off this summer at the request of of my doctor to calm my nervous system down, What's your race? Vercel button. What's pressing it? I was a music major, folks. I do not play an instrument. I play lots of instruments. I don't play an instrument well, and I can't sing. Pretty much the least talented music major to ever exist. Yeah.

Music? Where is this? Forty two percent of your Poor sleep will kill you.

I'm surprised some of these are so low. Basketball being so low, I you know, I guess Wes did see the terminal basketball game, and, What what health issues do you have? Did you ever have a salary paying dev job?

No. It's crazy. It does feel like 22%. It's pretty pretty popular in the dev space as Wes, just getting into strength training. So I'm glad to see that.

respondents use Basecamp.

I'm having a a giggle here. Discmans.

Yeah. I'm not surprised by that the job increases.

No. No. I never never have. I've always been a a free agent JS you will.

the just happy in general, it seems like massively improved by having the access to remote work or having some hybrid, Yeah. This is this is kinda interesting lead I don't see a single one of these people say What year is this done in?

average age.

I don't see any reason to make that not make that leap. But if it is like you're changing jobs every six months, that's gonna look bad on your LinkedIn. Sure. But if you plan on getting a job and you know the job security JS there and it is a higher bump and you're just gonna stick there for as long until somebody else comes knocking now I don't even know if this world exists anymore, I am a developer from Denver.

do strength training.

or maybe the highest three countries

I'm unrelated. Yes. Music is is not that closely related.

So this is not it is it's kind of a funny thing JS it's not something when people talk about it or ask me, hey. What can I expect to make? You don't necessarily know a whole lot of of what to talk about. And then you also have to talk about, like

It does show that, like, larger company sizes do, use Jira, obviously, same with Azure.

no. I'm not I'm not even gonna go there. No chance. No chance.

This is have you ever been laid off? Not like you been laid off and, you're still looking or any of that, which I I think might be a more important like, have you been laid off and you are unable to find a job currently, which is something that I would be interested in. I've never been laid off 69% which is only 42 respondents, but 18% says unhappy, 35% neutral, No. Fantastic. I'm not gonna eat something then.

I wanna take this opportunity to say Yes. We are going to have doctor Courtney Tolinski on the show to talk about like go to a coffee shop, work from someplace different around the house or whatever Yeah. Because it puts my brain in a position of Yeah.

9PM and get.

I was like Yeah. Post dinner. I was traversing pnpm AST, like, thirty seconds ago. Give me a sec. I I need that, like, come down. I don't have that come down at all, especially JS like, at the end of the day, I'm always trying to scramble to, like, wrap stuff up before the end of the day. And then if if you don't get it done in time, then you're just like, oh, man. I'm I'm so out of it.

if there was an office and then 41% And I had the As always, the responses to this are income versus which makes makes sense. Hybrid to me makes the most amount of sense.

the slop that they need. Please shovel me my slop today. Yes. Yes. Let me I will tell you folks, happy or 3.7 out of five happy JS average. Three out of five. But if you look at the very unhappy, it's 3% Vercel 11.

removing myself

Yes. How many people work there that got relationship with coworkers?

35, amongst depends on the role or mostly remote, I I do I do every single time I go to Amsterdam for JS Nation. It's like, man, I really like it here. It's pretty cool. Yeah. Oh, job title. I thought this was interesting what percentage of people have what titles. So 19% of people have software engineer. Okay.

seriously, is the salary bump

responded. Yeah. That's true. It's maybe not a big enough sample size. 20 folks. Yeah.

Yeah.

working situation,

One thing to just be able to, like, nail is be able to, like, get good sleep. You know? Like, that seems like such a life hack to figure out how to get really good sleep.

3.7%

It worked very well. And I'll tell you what. Since then, I think a lot of people just dick around. I and and I think that a lot of people would happily say they dick around and get paid for it and be fine with that. Not, like, massive percentage of people, but, like, yeah. I man, I I I I just know that, like, even in the office, people dick around. So given the opportunity Of the okay. We'll do how many of the top 20 you've seen and how many of the top 20 I've seen.

No.

Australia, macOS Only 2% Microsoft Edge.

on

anytime soon because I don't wanna have to go through all that change. Yeah. It makes sense.

still higher than Android and iOS?

and many of you thought that was it. Now some of you have, like, wondered I may have been, like, video games and video game platforms. Baldur's Gate three, Bellatro. Bellatro, that is a game you do not need to get into, folks. Man, that will suck up your dang time. It's like poker, but the poker rules are all wacky, and you're trying to score points.

I am

She's very brilliant, and she's just a general. Great. We've had her on the show a couple of times to talk all things like ADHD, and we've had a q and a with her before. I wanna offer this up again. If you have any questions about mental health stuff regardless, somewhere very like, the most relaxing place I could, and we went to a beach.

really great place to work. So always check out their hiring pages, careers pages on their website. Great company, and I gotta say the songs were enjoyable, But there is also a point where

Video game platform. Oh, wait.

for me, those big jumps Not surprising to me. Android is a great operating system, and I really like it. And anybody who talks crap about it can come talk to me. That said, here's my iPhone. I I used Android for a long time, and I like it a lot. So I I'm not surprised by that. It's it's way better than what some of these, like, code.

So I am Uh-huh. Like, I find it annoying that people oh, you wanna go for coffee? You wanna have lunch? No. I wanna sit here and dial in and work

I had a a

users, and the guess the lowest three average incomes. Are the sample sizes large enough?

sunroofs for a living. He has, like, patents and stuff, and he had, like like, window regulator designs. And to me, that's like or worked on window regulators and stuff. To me, that's engineer. When I saw people gain the engineer title, I'm like, my dad engineer. I'm not engineer. My dad is.

and and or be able to, like, brainstorm. You know? Hey. Let's pop into a room real quick and and talk this through. I think you certainly miss a lot of that, but I don't like all of that. I I do see why a lot of these companies are are pushing people back into

Imagine Dragons.

Oh, okay.

TikTok and all that stuff, and I have noticed

and seeing, Yes.

producer.

the substance rules, and it made me sick to my stomach. I watched it in VR, and it was, like, too big and crazy.

Tech being Well Google laying off a good chunk of their employees. You know? I think that is absolutely happening, and that absolutely does exist. But there has been other periods in other jobs and even in web dev where there were lots of layoffs. You know? There's ebbs and flows to this stuff. Now who knows all kinds of decisions at Century proper. And I'm like, bro, I make a podcast. I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah.

of full body muscle just twitches all over my body all day long for Pink Floyd. A lot of people as a as development, which It's easy. It's easy on Mac. It's UNIX. Just works. Like, yeah, it just works. You see, everything just works on it. All my apps are here. People were wondering how we could use macOS as developers when Apple is trying to kill the web on mobile phones. And my answer to that is I have used macOS since 02/2003.

hearing information croquettes all day and drinking coffee and riding their bike to work. Yeah. Stroke waffle. Join it all.

Here with you as always is Syntax. We are presented by Century over at century.io.

use TypeScript,

of developers using Let's get Scott canceled.

Yes.

Half of them sports exercise.

as an engineer in Canada, you get a pinky ring.

It doesn't matter. This is a fun game.

what people answer. Make sure you throw that on your list of things to answer because we always like getting the most possible people to answer these and to see the results.

of folks, which is that's a good thing. Nice. 69% of folks. Yeah. It's obviously nice. I've never been laid off at all. That's great. Yeah. I'm surprised at this. I you would have thought that it would be, You know? But, a notice, essentially, that this was possibly going to be a short term opportunity and to you know,

in a related field and 22%

And you've worked for no companies, Wes? Yeah. I'm at zero so far.

We have pulled up here on the screen. If you're listening via audio, we will talk through this. Video folks, it's on the screen. L l o if you wanna see it on video, youtube.com,

37 years old, and the average age is 36.1.

or in Denver within a reasonable distance from me, I think I would go in there at least a couple days a week, every week. Yeah. I think I would.

or, like, like, what your title is or, like, often they'll ask me, like had longer work hours. Every time I go there, people are like, let's go to dinner at

Weight issues, mental health issues, back pain, back pain. I thought back pain would be higher than that. I got back pain. Wes. And migraines,

being, big developers Oh, that's I I did three. White Lotus, I've seen. Yeah. Ted Lasso, which is fantastic.

full stack developer.

and I do like to chitchat and be amongst, that makes sense.

just slightly it's actually one funny thing JS I I look at all my stats from YouTube and and and, being deep in, like, a a bug or an issue, and then I'll I'll look up, and it's, like, five zero three. And I'm like, oh, man. I gotta I gotta start cooking dinner, like, right now. So I go up, and then it's just like,

people came from Josh.

which, and, leave it anonymously

Just Crazy. Asterisk too. Blue Sky, But, yeah, 36.1 Yeah. The the significantly

have been working a long time and are still under that, like, six figure number just because of where they're working rather than, like, yeah, responded. 77 people in the survey live in Denver because every single developer in Denver goes hiking.

worth it on that chance? Yep. I've seen Dune, the substance like,

is higher. So it's kinda interesting because, like, does that just mean be that they've been

Pnpm, where there's been a lot of conversation about people who write issues or angry reports or whatever without contributing

Desktop OS, though, 57% It doesn't doesn't put Japan in here just because, likely, it didn't have enough enough people.

I had you know, I I got that little bump from working at that job, but I got a Still, Kendrick Lamar should be number one. I don't know Node people at TOOL. That is not a surprise knowing web developers.

Yearly, all kinds of stuff. Who are developers these days based on this survey? As always, if you want to make these surveys more accurate, That must be Node. Phil, that must be nice for all you people. Yes. I'm a Okay. Here's another interesting thing is job happiness. The one on the left is if you are not allowed remote work. And Good relationships. That's, that's a different meaning. JS that the Coldplay My second dev job,

into the office.

Green bubble. No. I like, oh, you have a green bubble.

have things like our our our health episode. Either way Productivity.

Alright. I'll tell you. Top three JS US with $1.75.

Nice.

All respondents, yeah, 8%. USA, 9%. So USA is pretty much around the average here, which is, I have three different jobs. It's not like I had 10 different. Yeah. I think there's a point at which it becomes, oh, this person's not gonna stick around. I think there is that. I think that absolutely does exist, and that might prevent you from getting some jobs.

not that Basecamp is bad, but I have not heard of anyone use Basecamp in Yarn. Like like, ten years.

I can decide on CSS methodologies.

Yeah. Maybe. And I also know that this survey was pushed pretty high And that's quite a bit considering that a couple Yarn ago, we were talking about

you can interview for jobs, and you do not have to accept that job offer. Like, if I apply for a job 23% I'm surprised more people play do martial arts than do basketball, though. That is interesting. Martial arts seems like Productivity apps, 56% of people are having to use Jira. And I that's right. I say having to use because I don't know who's picking that by choice. Where's the a job unhappiness? Because there's a query builder here. You could you could technically filter, Vercel yearly income is the chart we have pulled up currently.

JS interesting that it seems like it doesn't really matter. The outliers are still the same. It does seem like people with a degree have a higher,

Four. I'm at one, and it's only because my kids took me to wild robot.

And Yeah. Wes, in to in to introduce, Wes, I I should say, expected given that they are 1,000 like, that felt, like, fraudulent for me to be like, I'm an engineer Wes I know, like, the difference in what we do. You know? Yearly income. I wanna don't look at this. I want you to Wes.

different function. If I'm in the same place for too long or whatever, I can get stalled out or I can just get, like, kind of, like, haze on me or something. But if I go to the office, I like that energy. And unlike you, I do like

about developers because, like, we're on our own bubble. You can assume things. Like, the one I I can't wait to talk about is there's more Android users than iOS

I'm not answering it. I don't even know.

have con have contributed back code. Like, a lot of people that took a survey may not have the skills to to push back to, like, I could not contribute back to FFmpeg.

see, That one that one wasn't in here, but for Scott of JS, we gotta get those numbers up or keep us at the top at least. Anything else to add? Should we wrap it up?

RSS servers and, I seemingly, shout out to Sasha for throwing these things. Wes, what's up? Hey. Excited to talk about this. Yeah. I always love

So go to the next physical activity one,

all up and up and up. So,

31, Python.

Maybe not.

Scott of Bravo. Anything that's on Bravo? Let's finish off in the metadata, see if there's any interesting thing in here. Browsers used to take the survey.

Yes.

and it is a nice salary bump and everything works out, which that's that's great. It would assume that number was higher, but that seems extremely high. Yeah. Yeah. Given the nature you know what? I because, you know, again, like Chad says open source is a gift economy. You know? Like, okay, people. And it it needed to scroll when I because look. When I hover before I hover, it just says relationships.

Yeah. What's interesting, full stack developer as a title. 4% of folks have a full I didn't I've never never seen that as a title. I've seen that as being your responsibility, Speaking of employment, Century, Doh e Do Chi. Do Chi, cool. Great album. Imagine Dragons is not a cool band.

having to do tasks and that, but, man, it's

Then blue sky and Twitter coming in very similar.

Only 5%.

that you're trying to to link to and put out there.

it it doesn't, you know, it doesn't really seem like it makes a difference necessarily.

So get yourself an engineering title if you can.

green bubble, She is my wife.

that, of course, the voice you've been hearing and seeing on your screen is none other than Wes, the big man boss. My name is Scott Tolinski.

like, worse, like, even higher, you know, of talk of Yep.

Where's Love Island?

And Switzerland also Mhmm. Mhmm. $125.

happy with a very little 8% of being Chef, Love Island, all the these cooking shows and stuff.

Leave those below in our our a potluck form on syntax.fm, Like, you know what? I really you Node, Coldplay. Jeez. Coldplay.

You know?

No. India, forty five average hours.

M and A. This is a very funny I'm gonna find the first cool band on this entire list. K? The first cool band is Kendrick Lamar and then, Radiohead.

and we're gonna be doing a show where we ask her all kinds of mental health questions. She gives us answers. I've been living with her for long enough that I know how to, you know, kind of get more out of some of these answers if if we need more to go deeper on some of this stuff. But she it's gonna be great. I can't wait to have her on again just because I always learn so much picking her brain every single day. But, yeah, if you if you have any questions about mental health stuff, 30% Apparently, that's entirely different. To call yourself an engineer in Canada unless you are states then.

the more companies people have worked with dinner,

Imagine Dragons.

there longer, or does that mean, like, a lot of people will tell you the way to get more money is to hop around. You know? You've I have many times I've talked into talk to people where they're like, yeah. I got $40 are hybrid. That's by far the largest

it it could be extended or whatever, but it wasn't contract Bos. And it was like,

what do we got here? The average number of of companies that people are have worked at is 4.2.

I sustained a really bad concussion and whiplash. I talked about it on this show. When it first happened, I was out of it. I took some time off briefly,

and a bridge collapses and you signed off on that, then, yeah, you could go to jail.

are progressing better enough that if some of you may have felt like I feel lighter lately, it's because I don't have this massive weight. I also got a really in-depth brain scan done. My concussion is fully healed. I've been going in there?

that was a long time ago.

But most people, I think, aren't working for the Silicon Valley companies, Fun game. I would put US up there for in the the highest. US is by far the highest,

Remote work. This one's really interesting.

average salary.

But put,

is obviously in US, but this is global. So Global. Salaries in The US tend to be higher. That's something that is also in this survey as Wes. But it does stick out to me that the jump from zero to four to five to nine

Then just developer, 15. Senior engineer, 13. A lot of senior engineers. Or senior engineer. Yeah. Front end developer.

to 36 k after one year because I had, like, you know, survived that one year, and that was, like, their actual

lower salary for zero to four years

different

Chrome.

Dune. Wes. Sure. Dune. Can we count how many of the top 20 I've seen?

and then I I became a senior interactive producer, probiotic

links to anything. So it was very hard. That that just goes to show that more people

Vercel iOS, 47%.

for general health and wellness throughout your entire life. I think that has become something that has become more common knowledge in in 2025 Let's do layoffs next year.

What do you say to people who say that looks bad on your salary Wes you only have pretty good.

Wes, like, it says the, you know, the fiftieth percentile here is 68,000.

exclusively remote, hybrid.

But I'm feeling much lighter and much better, now. I'm able to go back working out and everything like that. So you can make was that, like, you get into, you know, twenty five to twenty nine years of experience,

file browsers and people who do martial arts, I think. People who have a samurai sword in their house. Yeah.

amount. Which makes sense. You you went remote during COVID, and now it's like we Scott have you back some capacity. But Yeah. Yeah. Ex 24% only 25 or 27% Snacks with a purpose.

unhappy people in their job. Oh, yes. What percentage of them use Jira and Windows together? that I am slowly aging out of my audience, which is funny because when I started, my audience was older than me. Yeah. And now they are get into the standing thing. So I'm I'm giving it another go, and I'll I'll give you guys all an update in a couple months.

you should be using for your podcast.

somebody from wanting to hire you?

The rest of this stuff, yeah, I don't know. Where's where's Love Island?

Specifically me, Node, because my job requires yapping on a

that was it. You gotta check out the Node CJ and I did on RSS feeds because he talks about modern clients and modern

is average of of $30. Now this is this

hundreds upon hundreds of muscle twitches a day, and it's been very tough for me mentally to get through that. But I do wanna report that

Sleep Token. Yeah. Lots of Metalheads.

maybe will see Interstellar. I don't know why I haven't seen that by now. Oh, I did see the Lord of the Rings. I don't really care about any of the aliens. Romulus looks terrible.

Yeah. Surprisingly, a lot of doves out there who who listen to this show are gonna be working for agencies or one off company. They're gonna be a regular salaried employee at a company. And I remember my first Sanity dev job was working for an agency. I made $27,000

Okay. I have a a quiz for you. What country puts in the most hours? someone did a one week boot camp and and was making a $150

I I'd like

microphone all day.

Yeah. Only a 139 people are edging. MacOS w two job until I joined Century.

my buns off, this JS in every single country. Yeah. Netherlands, Poland,

So people who may be wondering what's up with me, that's what's up.

of people have no remote work? wham, like, What percentage

in my salary Layoffs.

the pnpm

Unsurprisingly, have used open source software. Sure.

have said yes

kids problems. And just I'm just like

which I don't like musicals, and I don't like The Wizard of Oz, but I saw Wicked,

That's because they have,

and kept me asleep and really saved my bacon. Went from two hours of sleep to eight hours. I know a lot of people don't wanna take medication for this, but if you're getting really bad sleep, it's gonna screw up a lot of other stuff. So are sitting around listening to Pink Floyd while they develop that. I understand that. I get it. Yeah. Let's talk about and say, hey. Yeah. Hey. Alright. What do you what do you think about this? Or, like, that Dune part two, and then I did see Wicked, of you who answered the survey, you know, if you got any ideas, we got, you know, a lot of interesting stuff on here. Wes, I'm gonna give a small health update for me given that I have a number of these things given my recent injury. In recent February,

You know? And it's I thought that they worked way later than us, but maybe not.

Firefox, 13%

We love these surveys because they tell us so much about our industry, hosting your own stuff and almost all it's pretty neat. So that was a really good episode. Check it out, but I think just

Yeah. Deno.

The most commonly reported health issue is poor sleep.

wrist and hand fatigue, ergonomics, folks. I worked my I I worked myself out of wrist and hand pain just by changing my ergonomics. That's for sure. Chronic fatigue, I think that goes along with poor sleep wrap it up. I'm gonna go eat some of my respondents out of the eight and a half thousand.

a long time. In fact, even as recently when Wes was here for our Syntax meetup and event in Denver when that happened, I was still experiencing basically, 118,000.

No. I have not been been playing any video games and never never have. We do have the original

Mhmm. Employer count. Residents who have worked for how many companies? State of devs, 2025.

how long they've been working. Where's the state of management? being having to go into remote, but it's a it's a pretty massive deficit.

they do them all the time. So just do the you know, Node come to any of these surveys whether it's Scott of JS, State of Devs, whatever. Look out for them. I'm sure there's a subscription on here you can, like, be alert to them. So if you're if you're one of those people who's gonna come in and be like, these aren't accurate, Wes, then, like, help make them accurate. We don't have any affiliation with State of Devs, but Sasha, who does put these together, is great guy and, he's always been a a good friend of the pod. So, and some of these other ones, joint pain. Hey. Mental health issues, thirty percent.

substantial very unhappy has a massive 11%,

and, and work there. So those are those are the top ones. And then the lower end ones,

Reddit makes sense. It is funny, though. Like, as far as the devs I follow and really like, I would say it is kinda fifty fifty if they post on Twitter or just Blue Sky, you know, who I follow. So I don't know. I go I go to the apps for, different people, I suppose.

Welcome to Syntax. Today, we are talking about data for developers as we talk about the state of devs survey that was just dropped, the state of devs 2025.

And the phone problem is that I picked up the I was, using Android. And when we switched to iOS,

What the hell? How how is how is their options? Oh, you have to you have to write them in.

Quite a bit happier.

59%

What is the highest country after that, it drops off quite a bit. You get Canada, Denmark. Canada's not known for its tech salaries, which is we we have something here called the brain drain, which JS, unfortunately, a lot of our good developers go down to The States

Okay. Let's talk about health health and fitness. We love health and fitness. We gotta do our annual health and fitness episode again, and and Yeah. We should do that new year, new me territory. You know, we should just make that a whole dang month. New year, new me syntax, So that's like yeah. A lot of people are very unhappy, is being up kind of the highest

Oh, I did pretty good.

my wife was like, if we're switching, like, I don't wanna switch back like, baseline and a higher average. The fiftieth percentile JS 90 k versus 70 k. So maybe that degree is still counting for something in this regard, but, you know, the upper bounds are still the same.

Anything with the with the, average or the fiftieth percentile being $90,000 mental health challenges of any kind. She is a doctor of psychology.

and the best part about having executive in your job title is that you get a lot of emails from companies being like, you, sir, our decision maker at Century Corporation. Like, you know,

is that on there? I'm always curious about that. Like,

very time sinky and will suck you in. It's great. I love it. My favorite game on this list is Clear Obscure. That game was fantastic.

I did say that at one point. Yes. Health issues? not not a medic medication recommendation.

is another big one. Things like part of the company in comp and feature or, like, those things are all only things that happen it has been my experience But that's still, like, in the nineteenth percentile

Oh. Which is and then you just carry you just wear around this, like, iron pinky ring all year round. That's pretty cool. But, like, they build bridges

The average salary difference between job titles containing engineer and those containing developer is $44,000.

I would like to see everything everywhere all at once.

as as I like to say. But

It's not still in there.

to, you know, not have somebody watching over you, you know, you might pop on Netflix or something. Me, personally, I will say I used Basecamp when I worked for Ghostly International, and I thought it was bad then. I have not used it since. Node liked it back in the day. Camp.

Sasha.

and do things like that, and if they're legally liable. Right? If you if you build an app that 25%, are,

That's odd that that is even an option on this tab,

That's crazy. I would've thought that'd be higher. So 38% Running, biking, yoga, swimming, climbing,

Reddit.

I have maybe had consecutive days, Scott, like, straight consecutive days, but I've had a streak of days, like, five, six, seven days long with no twitches.

out the door.

No remote work still has basically the same range. It looks like there there's not a ton of correlation there. And there there could be something here, but it's not, like, obvious.

favorite And we also like it when it says Syntax is their favorite podcast by a massive

7% of them Yarn, but not so much into soccer. I thought soccer would be much higher than that. So much into soccer.

$125.

Then we'll see. No kidding. A higher education degree, The rest of them, I don't know. Sinners, maybe?

Man, I was huge on RSS readers, and I love that. And and to me,

And then,

high quality of life there. They're just having how many of these people have a higher education degree?

in The Netherlands. I I love going to The Netherland

Big fan.

I'm just going to places I know developers at. That's what's happening to me.

I think people have really grown to the fact that strength training is more than just gaining muscle. It's

remote. Wow. And then 33 58% movies, TV, 53%

It is

p a d p l? Paddle?

Yeah. You know what's interesting about this? I didn't even know that web developers got the title of engineer until, 44 next highest is LinkedIn, office culture, interactive producer. I don't know where my company got the title of interactive producer.

a year that was in 02/2011.

but

Stardew Valley, obviously, great. Favorite movies,

exclusively

Age. Age is part of your health, apparently.

so it goes higher. But then, it's probably just because there's less respondents. You see less outliers. So, like, more of it's clustered. So it does seem like it it does correlate to years of experience here, but I would imagine there's definitely some folks who

a couple years under six or seven different companies? You know? Like,

episode c, Jen, I recorded about RSS. I was like, I'm probably only 40 year old. I'm not 40 yet, by the way, folks, but I'm just about. I'm probably the only near 40 year old who

and then I became a web developer. I thought engineer was the the guy who sits in the caboose of the train and shovels coal into the the engine. Right? Well, my dad is an actual engineer. He, he designed majority

Social media. I often wonder about social media stuff considering the patterns that we see. Looks like 44% of y'all are using Instagram.

And that became the first two days entry level. Yeah. I I don't really know the circumstance to it. But either way, I I for the most of the time I worked in that job, it was, like, 36,000.

Wes, 9%

Yes. And Right. Yeah.

And then when you get into ten years of experience, that when that way, you're getting in a bit more into the 6 figure territory with some making significantly more. You know, the thing I thought about found about this interesting I was then bumped up

of it. So the highest layoffs in the last twelve months has been Brazil.

PHP. That makes sense. Bash. Who names who calls themselves a Bash programmer? Alright. Let's do let's do the same for TV shows.

The yeah. We played, the new Switch two, Wes. You should consider it, man. We we've been playing Sanity Mario Kart. My daughter and I put the little Switch two on a kickstand on the plane, and we played Mario Kart for, like, a long time on a flight, and it was like a blast. She was just going nuts. Man. Camping, a 120,000, I cannot stop. I am like all my stuff's here. I'm sorry. I'm too embedded in the ecosystem.

Oh, man. Mine's actually not good. Yeah.

because I own my own company, they're like, what do you do? And, like, what is your title at at your company? And it's either like, am I the CEO?

in, like, health issues, I understand them, folks. The poor sleep thing was killing me. So if you can't figure out your sleep, I took something called trazodone, which is an SSRI for sleep, I believe, or it's an antidepressant for it might not be an SSRI.

today. These things get dropped all the time, but this one teaches a little less a little bit about whether, like, you have your what jobs are out there, even the status of layoffs and things like that. But we're gonna be talking about health, technology, I've thought here.

yeah, pretty high at fifteen. Walking and hiking at 77

which I would not have guessed. Although I was maybe I would have. Yeah. You would have guessed that. Alright. Well, we'll we'll get down into that, but let's start with the the career stuff. Talk a little bit about income and whatnot.

Where is the Real Housewives? You got 23 people out of 6,800

And then if you look at the highest paying salaries,

Same for TV shows. Favorite TV shows. Okay. How many of them have we seen?

of the 8,000 respondents. If you go to the next page on workplace,

a year. Does anything in this chart stand out to you, Wes?

That's nuts.

Vercel