The State of Frontend

Yes. Where's the local data stuff on here? I think that kind of falls into several of these things just individually, but nothing specifically.

a candle warmer lamp.

Was it supposed to be a Christmas gift? Yeah. It was gonna be a Christmas gift for our office. She's like, did you get this for you? I was like, no. I got it for your for your office for Christmas, and I couldn't believe it. It's, like, 5 minutes since she she somehow, like, not only opened it, but got it going and everything. So, yeah. That's great. Yeah. I I love it. The the one thing about it is that it

The it's, like, 5:30

sick pick something from our holiday gift guide episode that Wes,

send it to your grandma, do all that stuff. So thank you so much. And, Oh, Spotify also now has has comments. They Spotify had comments for, I don't know, probably about 6 months, a year now, but you could never reply to them. So it Wes just like people would write stuff, But And the fact that I was searching JS Fiddle 10%. This surprised me.

more significant.

history cool kids or some sort of like, one of these things that just posts, like, photos of interesting things like Facebook Scott.

talk on it, which is exciting to me because, like, threads also did it. But I find a lot of the talk on threads is just why people don't like Twitter. And, like, I just wanna learn about CSS. You know? I wanna I'm I'm coming because there's people talking about web development stuff here, and I feel like that conversation is really good on Blue Sky right now. It's great. Everybody's here. It's a it it's the the vibes are Zuestand,

just buy it for a week, which I love. Because if you are going on a trip, yeah, shell out for a week of this. It's gonna

Wes is the URLs for Blue Sky? It's it's b s k y dot app, but what is for syntax? Is it at syntax? Dot f m. Syntax at syntax.fm.

I was trying to get it without her noticing it, obviously, but it's coming in from Amazon.

feed, which is like like, an algorithm based thing that tries to show you things that you like. And I did get, like, a

that seems a lot

syntax on Blue Sky. We're on Blue Sky, blue sky Scott app.

accurate do you feel like this So I do think that's what it says. What you want. Yeah. Yeah. And but nobody knows about it. 66% stick right there. On the other hand, we don't usually move that fast. That was my my little,

I'm curious if you can Wes buy I bet. Yeah. You just drip your essential oil. That starts a fire.

Yeah.

has all the features, really nice tracking on

Yeah. Cool. I'm gonna, shamelessly plug

I don't know. There's a lot of neat stuff going on there.

Yeah. Yeah. Don't do that.

right, which bun at 10%, which is the 2nd highest. Deno, kind of a shocking 2.6. Deno just works, y'all. It is really nice and smooth. I think bun is just like a little extra extra sprinkles on top, But Deno just works to me. You know? Yeah. I think I think the bun is a bit it's kinda like the HT Max answer JS it's a a bit hyped. I I also I think a lot of people are using bun for their their tooling and their build as well As far as other ones, we, you know, tend to encounter here. I'm pretty stoked on the fact that tan Scott query is so high at 43% used and liked TypeScript.

I am going to, whether or not it will turn into something like TypeScript,

Check us out. We've been posting there. I've been posting there. It's a it's a band. Besides just being a

I think that was, like, the big selling point at first. It's a Twitter alternative.

Luckily, nobody who I know or care about has blocked me. So

Blue Sky. What's up? Alright. That's it. Thanks, everybody, for tuning in. We'll catch you later.

Word.

immaculate currently,

I should be good to go.

and put them into the wax once the because you you end up with this candle that has no more smell in it after, like, 3 or 4 weeks of using it. Mhmm. Mhmm. But you still have wax left, so you can

this flight has always been 12 minutes late into the game or early, and it updates it. And it puts your flight information For real for real. Vercel Slack. It it might not be the best, but, like, I don't know. I'm rooting for Cursor, but I'm rooting for Versus Code as well. It's I don't think it I think it's way too early in this code editing game to even decide a winner.

yeah.

nature. Yeah. There's a lot of interesting stuff. And by the way, we're we're having Dan on the show. Yeah. Dan Abramov, who works at Blue Sky, formerly of the React team. Inventor React. Yeah. Really, really stoked, different skill levels, different departments.

and I have 5 minutes to get home. In fact, I'm on my way home when the package arrives, and I'm like, I gotta intercept that package. I know Kourtney's making dinner right now, so, therefore, Yeah. Rest in peace, stylists.

there seems to be a lot of, like, web development

We'll make sure we have a link to that in the show Node, profile syntax.fm.

Sick. Cool. Well, let's get into sick pics and shameless included into that.

app. It's it's one of those, like like, tap bots or whatever. They build beautiful apps. I feel like it's in that range of of good apps. And I I didn't pay for the the paid version. I used the trial, and then I I don't know if I would would pay for it. But, apparently, you can also

brought to my attention. Oh.

a Twitter alternative,

Another thing was, block blocklists are public, by the way. I don't know if you knew that. Really? You can see who blocked you.

plugs.

Cool. Alright. Well, that's it. An interesting look at where we're at with our the whole web development scene right now. I always love going through these and just getting a good feel for where everybody's

to talk to Dan about this. So,

shared

Man, I got Kourtney a candle warmer lap for lamp for her office. And what was so funny is that Wes, like, I was trying to, like, which is nice.

as you use it, the smell comes out of the candle, but the candle doesn't burn down as quickly as the smell gets away,

at. Yeah. Yeah. Especially, again, outside of our bubble, I think, is important here. So, many different large code Wes. JavaScript developers on I thought it was but a well, I think we had the same conversation last time. Either way, the highest most used in like is of the React Context API straight to the dome. That's the highest used in like. Straight to the dome.

which is a beautiful Ios app. It's one of these ones that's just so well designed, Yeah. It's That's great to see. A responsiveness.

And, like,

Oh, that's cool.

Yes.

it was it was JS as at my son's soccer practice.

That's actually Deno that. Doosan came first, and it was kinda one of the 1st alternate ones. I am surprised that MobX is so low given at one point felt like, it was between Redux and MobX as being the 2 major

used and liked 70%

and the most not interested.

choices in the space. And and Redux, obviously, the most popular one. But you'd think after being around for so long and having an approach that's more similar to, like, if it's within my workspace itself in my Node repo. Yeah.

Can I quiz you on the next one? Don't look at the other libraries or have you? Okay. So I'm gonna quiz you on the next one, which is what other libraries have you used in the last year? So I'm gonna I'm gonna rattle off

which is the most

yeah, be a little bit higher.

the 6 libraries I have here, and you have to guess like, GitHub owns all this stuff. You know? Yeah. The heavy hammer. The the the number of poor souls that have used Microsoft Teams It's for AWS dot t s files of a HLS stream. I wanna figure out how to store those locally in the browser so that if the

just to see.

I do know that the Pnpm Node is a little bit simpler. I recently then you you're overriding those by by just simply putting transform, rotate, whatever.

Can you act like, so they're like, we have full Node support now, blah blah blah. You know? And I was like, alright. Bet. Let's try, like, this huge Node app that I've been working on for 10 Yarn. That's a massive monorepo, and and there's multiple workspaces or there's there's, yeah, multiple workspaces in it. So I use Pnpm to manage my workspaces.

went and tried to deploy my entire

course platform to Deno Deploy

And the thing I had to change was that interface for that. And, obviously, there's way better ways to do it, but, like, that's your you're getting started.

obviously, deployed to Deno play, they're gonna use NPM or or they're gonna use their NPM equivalent.

I use, like, workspace colon star in my package JSON, which is really nice because it just finds the folder

And Playwright 36%

I am happy we're using Playwright on the syntax site because, well, not just because of this, but

usage which I thought Playwright at this point we'll get some sort of types JS comments as that that only because it feels too niche. Yeah. I think like, again, you just use the Vercel, and it automatically does linking instead of needing to put workspace in the version,

running the app, I'm always hesitant to do that as well. Yeah. The microfinance thing seems to be a problem

Yeah. Did a like, line of code to pull from both npm when it when it's somewhere else, but also from my workspace I walk in the door. She's already got the candle warmer hooked up and using it. She's like, hey. Did you buy this for me? I was like, no.

in something like Cypress, which has 42%

the standard for just, like, oh, I'm gonna learn testing. Let me learn how to test to function. And I'll still do occasional unit Wes, but mostly it's Node just, It for it came into fire believe it or not, it came into Firefox in 2020.

the,

Ramda, and underscore? And, bits. And especially with the style queries, But, like, the amount of people that are still using jQuery Most used And then there's a whole that's whole webpack module federation thing make your, installed and then but Yarn also now comes with

Immer, because

Jquery? Not liked or disliked, but just used entirely?

people still use it. People have existing applications, and it's a great there's a good community on there. It feels

So What is it? Rotate?

Yeah. I'm gonna say for the other one, it's it's probably for the least used or whatever. It was, like, least a a bunch of things. So the most used and liked out of all of those? Yeah. Gosh.

Jeez. That's a quite quite in SF, so it was nice to meet him. But guess who wrote something about fetch? It was me. I wrote something down here. Yes. Fetch. It's both surprising and unsurprising that Fetch has 82% usage rate. On one hand, it's amazing how quickly or or getting close to 6. The package arrives,

This Scott actually. So jQuery is a a close not even a percent on Sublime anymore. Poor Sublime.

Yeah. JQuery.

writing all of your JavaScript in jQuery or picking a library like React.

that's a frustrating thing sometimes about the bubble JS people don't realize that, like, you pick tech and you work with that tech for for many, many years, especially when it's such a low level choice, like

Jeez.

RxJS,

second, but low dash coming in at JavaScript's gonna turn into something like TypeScript at some point. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know that we'll ever get, like, actual types as part of the engine.

I can understand why Wait. It's no. Highest Oh, no. Developer experience. User experience is 90%. Whatever that means. User primarily front end people. Yeah. Okay. Well, one, I think Netlify is going to be on there. I think Vercel JS going to be on there. I think DigitalOcean's because Oh, man. That's a tough, a a code review of our PR Sanity. And, like, updated our things. It was like, your test will run faster this way. I was like, man, that rules. Thank you. That's so cool. Thank you. That's great. Yeah. It's I actually had somebody email me the other day asking, like, Do you have anything

And by the way, the the, Pnpm

that is specific and I think it's a pretty nifty and you'd be like, cool. I have no idea who you are or any how to reply to you. But now you can actually reply to comments on Spotify, which I think is pretty cool as well. So if you're in Spotify, still works

And, like, it wasn't installing properly, and I was like, like, I have the wrong version of yarn installed. And then but

to package managers as well. I remember. That that was a whole big controversy

all of the workspaces in there. Oh, you did. Yeah. Yes. But app platform is is I would expect to see are, like, today? Yes. I'm going to sick pick the Flighty Ios app. So I've been using a app called FlightView and functions in CSS the wider audience, you would get a bit more heavily Windows.

package,

aside from that, I don't think I I try not to do anything

to your package manager because I wanna be able to run it with NPM or with PNPM. That's part of the reason why I'm get whenever a project uses Yarn like, I was trying Redwood JS out the other day, and it uses yarn.

when they added that to to Node. It was like the Yarn team specifically was really pushing for it, which And why you say this Wes it's so funny. I went to, like, log in to pay my bill on AWS the other day, and I got hit with this login.

in node Wes node now ships 50% of people think GraphQL will lose popularity, which I think I agree with, not because it's bad. Again, it's just not the tool for absolutely everybody. I think it's clear where the use cases of GraphQL shines. Micro front ends

which is, Yeah. But let's talk about rendering frameworks, which is, like, basically, like old Internet. You know? And, I know we did a show on it, like, a year and a half ago, and it it kinda fizzled out. But now there's, like, a second wave happening again, I

in production just yet. Yeah. I've seen people use it. Like, even on Cloudflare Pages, on, from PeepCode as well. He had a really cool tutorial about, like, making pies and most recent pies and and WebSockets. And Yeah. They just have so many products.

and then deploy it to Cloudflare Pages. So you you don't run your website in BUN, but you can use it as the the build tool. Yeah.

So you're you're seeing quite a bit of that as well. I'm surprised to see that so much higher than Deno, though,

in the front of each one of these section, there's a little there's an pnpm expert who gives a little An expert. Yes. Yeah. An expert. And, actually, 1 the Node before this was Daniel Node. Shout out to, Daniel. He was at our our Syntax meetup,

even just using service workers

Hey.

we've standardized on fetch, which is simple enough that most users don't need external dependencies. That's me putting in my my axios

of people who are still holding on to everyone who soon forget about TypeScript.

occasionally now, and at property is, like, probably one of the only part of Houdini?

Yarn a lot of the things that

or caching APIs, web workers, IndexedDB,

There's also 1.9% and only gave me, like, to all all browsers and everything like that. You can now install apps on your home screen in the in the correct ways on many platforms now. So, yeah, I think PWAs it's their their product. They wanted alternatives.

Yeah. That's that's gonna happen. That's about as likely as AI just going away next week. You know? That's that's not gonna happen, folks. Browser technologies, 82% some of the highest for not interested and no opinion and

people using the Fetch API, which, I guess, other people are still using Axios.

well, I had some paragraphs. Actually, they they tightened it up for me. I'm not a gifted writer. So their staff looked at it and gave it a little editorial, but, this is my my words for the most part. So read my little sentence here and say if you want. Yep. Other things noted, a lot of these APIs that got usage even though they're they're still under 50%

Before before you even go on from that, I don't know if you noticed, Wes. But wrapper without the the baggage of the whole library. Yeah. Word. Isn't that actually no. That's is that k y? Is that what that library is? K y Yeah. I'm not As you're describing this warp. I was looking at it, and I was thinking, I'm pretty sure that's just k y.

We'll see.

are using Houdini, which Next one, package managers.

well, I think we're gonna see more of because they're more native app like features, whether that is, like, the storage, a API, they should have figured out at Twitter, like, 10 years ago. So, shout out to Blue Sky for being,

equivalent? Mac.

surprisingly. So number 1, Vercel, 36.2%, pretty high as

I'm so surprised Amazon has not made a methods or anything that you need straight out of just instead of bringing in a big old platform or something. Okay. Cool. That's not true because Lodash had for the longest time, you've been able to load just the method you've needed from Oh, yeah. Dash dash p s. But

I keep I know I keep saying this, but, like, next, and then basically half of that. So next is 52%.

and then AWS, 32% under that. So more people using Vercel over AWS, which makes sense.

a single

if you want to update a rotate value in a key frame, you have to say transform, the browser.

rotate, whatever.

So, typically, when you define a a CSS variable, you're just saying, here's the variable, here's the value. And that doesn't tell CSS or the browser a whole lot about what that value is.

The other good use case or I've used at property for is

you know what type it is, it makes interpolating those values possible by the browser.

That's that's what's cool about it. But, yeah, I I think for the most part, it's just types for your variables.

if you want to instead of changing a property in a key frame, like, for example, a rotate value, Welcome to Syntax. Today, we have the state of front end survey results, and Scott and I are gonna go through it. Some interesting stuff in here in terms of, like, what frameworks are people using, how are people writing CSS.

And then here's a default value for it. Now the the cool thing about that is because shout out to all of the folks who put this survey together and including me in it because it was Node to do this kind of thing. So, shout out to state of front end 2024. Give it a check. Let us know what you think. How Versus Code by not showing up in this chart at all. Did we have somebody leave a comment like, too late. Cursor's already got it or something?

with this at property rule, what you're essentially doing is you're taking, like, 4 lines of code to define the same dependency,

And My name is Scott.

at the the numbers behind Remix. You know? I always think that they would be much larger, but just goes to show that, like, when something big catches on, what's the thing? It comes with Node? What's that called

Remix only 12%, which I'm always surprised

Half of that is Nuxt and Astro coming in, and then SvelteKit at 17%.

quite slow to move on to something else.

for that type of thing.

So this is interesting because and Yeah. But the CI like, Angular you know, we warp all kinda coming off of Backbone, looking at Angular, and then Ember was was one of the good big come ups from it. We had dinner with, someone worked at LinkedIn at the after the meetup, and he was saying Ember's great, but it's it's a little bit different. And,

that's my my future here. I'm gonna be one of those guys, like, a year from now. It's like, I love Docker. That's so funny because I I have, like, 9 Docker images running on, like, servers. I have a local running. But, like, on my own computer, I just

of people are using Node. Oh, because this is a multiple choice. I'm wondering, like, how are people using BUN and Node? Okay. So Node at 96%, local first stuff.

node installation or you have 1 project that needs a, like, a specific version of Yarn to run and another one that needs a different version of Yarn to run,

in a CapEx or anywhere. Like, 47 gigabyte Dockerfile every time I wanna run something. But Docker's crazy. I like, skewed in some direction.

like doing that. I'd rather go to several places to start my database itself to boot up my server and then boot up my UI. Rather just run off those processes individually but they certainly do the job. It goes to show you just make it free, make it available. People are gonna use it, and and just take over that that platform entirely. I I haven't reached for anything else. I do a ton of GitHub actions on on most projects, so definitely myself, I think that's something they should be, should be tracking here.

it. Let's look at it in run times. We talk a lot about run times, but 96%

your package manager can specify which version of your package manager to use. So if you have 1, the whole micro front ends thing is I keep hearing about it. I keep talking to people about it at conferences that are from larger companies, there's, like, an Axios like library that gives you the pieces that people use. Like, people wanna set their auth headers once. Yes. And or people don't wanna have to double JSON. You know? Yeah. Especially with TypeScript. And, like, the answer to that is, well, just write a wrapper function. But Axios kinda is that wrapper function, so I think there are alternative libraries that sort of give you that Axios

you can use different versions of Yarn and and PMPM on a different one without having to do the whole switcheroo every single time. And I know everyone's saying, just use Docker. No. I will not not use Docker that all top level folders. You wanna add new packages, you just add another one. I had to go change it to explicitly stating where you can share code between them. I think that we need to we'll we'll ask you this, dear audiences.

don't feel leave a comment as well.

If enabled, locally available packages are linked into node modules instead of being downloaded from the registry. Oh. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And so it's basically where they've been in the past. Yeah. Yeah. DigitalOcean's

just in like, as an alternative to PNPM or Yarn or or something like that. Right? the icon on there. One thing I didn't do is I wanted to figure out how to

I think I can experience my pain. A little bit closer to using Docker every day, Wes. I think that JS,

On quarter 2, that 4.1. Yeah. I think, like, LinkedIn is is one of the biggest users of Ember. I wonder who else is, any big out other sites on Ember? Yeah. I did you ever learn Ember? Did you ever pick it up? of used.

So yeah.

Slightly. I touched upon it. It was kinda, like, during the, you have, like, React and Svelte and Vue, but, like, what frameworks do you use on top of it? Most used,

like, there's not a ton of of documentation on, like, bugs and stuff outside of well, luckily, inside of LinkedIn, they can they can reference all those people because they use it quite a bit internally.

properly.

nicely, but also telling me when I'm doing bad things, like not nesting

30% of people are using and liked Styleint. We use Styleint, and I I like it. It keeps Wes Boston.

it does a good job at both formatting my markdown as as much as I thought it would. Cloudflare Pages, though, is and it makes your candles last way longer than if you were to burn them. But, also, you wonder, like, where's that going? You know? Like, the wax is, I guess, going into the air, being burnt. Is that how all candles work, though?

then, yeah,

and then consuming the old JavaScript versions as they need it. Yeah. 2.2% that's more than I thought. Remember, we talked we talked about that on our previous episode is I didn't think that I guess it has to be, though, because of the decentralized Peace.

I do hear occasionally there's some nicer things about Flow, but, yeah, not nice enough for me to to jump on that bandwagon here.

and everybody is 90% on on TypeScript is is amazing. Right? Like, so there's

used and liked.

good luck there.

does that mean like, I would have thought it would the Node would be a bit higher because of legacy stacks. You know? Just just simply can't move it over to TypeScript. But maybe people are just starting to opt in to to writing the new pieces in TypeScript and

Used and liked. 94% of people, no opinion on this thing. So give KY a check. I I don't feel like I need it or want it, but, if you're reaching for Axios, KY might be a good option.

Flow. So if you're one of the people who held on to Flow,

how do I how do I test this? You know? And they had, like, a seeing some tools that

well, I think that unless you were to do a bit of a rewrite and and sort of modify everything, the end to end testing is

a user upload the PDF, and the PDF is parsed, and then the parsing values gets fed through this next thing. And they're like, there's but in the same regard Wes did an entire show on why do people still use Axios, which is episode number 4 53. Go to syntax.fmforward/453.

making updates to it. Yeah. Yeah. For real. And, you know, they often have, like, test recorders, which is nice, where you can just click around the site, and it'll record your actions at right the the at least, like, the navigating parts Mhmm. Of using your thing. And that way, you just have to write the the, Number 1, vanilla.

expects

is maybe your best bet, to have some sort of security and that this thing many people had dedicated QA, and, turns out that

or whatever. I expect this to do that. Code editors, that was really good, Wes. Really? Did I get it? You got the you got all 3 of them correct. You got the order wrong. It's plain CSS, then Sass, then Tailwind, Even Google, though Google's developer platform

when you finish,

And,

the highest used and liked JS Axios. I gotta say why. What are we doing here? That to me is kinda wild. I just

Why do people still use Axios OverFetch? And you can use BUN to build your website

What's up with that? Yeah.

but it's higher than native fetch. I know.

and and expired JWT tokens and validation status and all that. But, we'll see tools built on top of that to sort of formalize

why people still do it. There are some use cases, which is ESLint Mhmm. And those are always interesting to me. It's when people who are learning web development Redux Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm a big fan. I've also been using markdown lint a lot lately, and it's,

for the

Like, for instance Yeah. I mean, like, now the stuff I do always has the progressive web app stuff about it. It has a service worker. It has a manifest file and an icon and a theme color.

are gonna become more just generally used rather than people focusing on building a PWA,

and it was just looping through the syntax shorts that we had and had a big syntax logo and some of the Tolinski. And it it was meant for, like, people walking by warp able to be like, oh, syntax. I've heard of that. And then they would sort of come into the the booth, and then we'd sell them on Sanity.

I I built just a little Wes very popular. Right? And now we have this idea of micro front ends where you have different teams building different components that then come together.

which is the most used and liked? of people used and liked,

Panda, Because one feature that I've been really liking in PNPM workspaces Meaning that, like, I can use

Wi Fi were to go out, they would the video would keep looping.

So I hope so. We'd I we built a little, PWA

store the

syntax at GitHub Vercel. We had a little iPad on the table, then it gets a little tricky because you simply just wanna update a variable, and anything that is then reactive to that variable does it. So let's let's look at the update.

Sass, styled components, Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I I bought a file system API. Full screen. Full screen. Yeah. These things are gonna get more ubiquitous. They're gonna get more available. The one that is kind of crazy is that 3.5%

stylus, Tailwind, those types of things, Oh, top hosting providers.

It works offline. It does all the stuff that a a progressive web app should do, but I've never sat down and be like, let me progressive web appify this thing. Yeah. Yeah. You're just using features that will be Sanity. I'm throwing stuff into the cache.

and liked.

Ways to write CSS.

Progressive web apps, the most people think the popularity will slowly increase.

progressive web app.

packages, like, check for the packages first in the workspace without having to put workspace in the version. You just put the version

do you have to

all

is to

you know, Vercel.

in their version as workspace,

define all of your packages

treat is if you're out there and you're listening to us talk about this? If do you feel this is accurate? If you do or don't, leave a comment below. Best place to comment on YouTube. While you're there, feel free to give this thing a thumbs up, a like, a follow, a share,

ignorance here. Yeah. But in npm workspaces,

in your package dot JSON, and it will check the workspace first even without the word workspace in the version.

So you can use that Node. Yeah. You can use it. You can just straight up

It has 94% the grifters and who knows what has arrived. But Yeah. I did get one in my so there's a Discover

something else based on that value, ESLint

and it came into Chrome in 2022.

It came into Safari in 2021,

global usage.

alternative, and that did not come up once. Yeah.

deployment thing or AWS vault Vercel as, like, one of those, like you know, I don't know what that's called in Bos, but, like, when you're doing something It's like an action of some kind. Yeah. Yeah. If you're shopping for Instacart, it will, like, show you where your your person is or your Uber will will show up. It does that with flighty, candle scents

Yeah. Amplify. That's it. Okay.

100 people on this and build it. Is kinda wild that DigitalOcean didn't show up. I feel like at some point, they would be very high on this chart. Yeah.

they could put a couple the fact that, we detail The I don't know the exact answer to that, but

the fact that I'm forgetting what that call JS called, which I'm sure you're screaming at it right now. I know what it is, by the way. I can tell you. JS it? throttling, where I'll I'll install just debounce or just throttle. And Mhmm. Because, like, I hate writing that myself. It's it's too complex.

what AWS JS, like, continuous integration thing where you, like, push a git commit, and it rebuilds it and deploys it for you, I'm just surprised.

And, like, come on. You gotta think

Amplify.

a, forgetting I haven't heard of anybody actually running BUN

I could do that.

man, that's probably not practical. It probably is, but you're not, yeah, you're not ever gonna do that in in

tons of components,

every piece of tech that we've built our entire business on Yeah. Totally. For the last 10 years.

I mean, that's just not a problem we're going to hit. So, it is it does seem like kind of a hairy solution to me. I I feel like it's a better solution of just I get everybody on page ring the same thing, but, outside of variable, as in here's what the variable JS. Here's the type of the variable. Is it a number or what? I It is one of those things that we talked about, especially in the Copilot episode that we just recorded Wes,

NPM, no doubt, 56%.

or a solution to solve a problem that we, you and I, just will never face because we don't have,

fast enough where people can get their work done. I know. It it it's such a, a dumb guy view of it. Oh, why don't we just all use the same thing? Yeah. All all 5,000 of those. Great idea. Yeah. Yeah. Let's just, like, scrap

let's face it. I I've done a handful of migrations.

worked on the 1st try

used and liked, which is great. I like this interface where it shows the, And then, actually, I'll give you, like give me 1, 2, 3.

5 files to touch after the fact, which stylus, sadly enough, 3.5%.

is pretty substantial given the the changes. Yeah. It worked really super well. It was maybe the smoothest migration I've done on anything, and

well. Svelte extremely I think well, Svelte the highest one in want to learn. It is. It is. It is. And the set you choose learn it. It's great. Yeah. Oh, yeah. We use it. You know? Actually, you know what? One thing I you know, Node turned into a little Svelte love sesh here. But the one thing I really enjoy most recently about the the transition to Svelte five was that the migration assistant

Mhmm. What's also interesting here is that HTMX is number 2 for want to learn, but also

GitHub actions, 70%.

of your serverless function with your node modules in it. Like, that's their your life a little bit simpler.

like, their initial interface for deploying a serverless function is upload a zip file

Like, remember back in the day, everyone used Or maybe maybe we'll ask this. What's the most used, This this is a really good one to just look at, like, awareness of, like, what is out there. Right? Like, we've talked Panda The most not interested.

Logging in and get pulling and then running.

They're they're published by their own self. You don't have to and then only a1000 from North America. So I think that is

Right. So it's very copy pastable.

Yeah. And I don't honestly, don't know what the sizes are. I think what attracted me to Just is the fact that the sizes of all of these things are very good place. Yeah.

Let's talk about data. I think data is an important one, how we're bringing in data to our applications.

This one's shocking to me. 73%,

about 18% using JetBrains.

series I'm gonna be I'm gonna be, Yeah. Yeah. Browser code editor.

3% on VIM, I I almost do it as well. The one time I do reach for it is debouncing My name's Wes. With me, as always, mister Scott Tolinski.

using Versus Code,

the

for free if you're Scott commercial. So if you're just doing a side project, you wanna check it out, you can get it for free, which I think that's really exciting to see that.

ability to have a free access for noncommercial Vercel like experience. And every time we say this, people come out and say, yeah. But there's it's But right on your home screen

use, which which I think is huge. Because, like, Scott of times, people say, why don't you use JetBrains? I don't wanna pay for it. You know? I think that's a a big move for them for you can now get a WebStorm, PHPStorm, are maybe not using those. Although, like, I heard the other day, Shopify I wonder if if we were to poll our audience, I bet it would be, like, I can see that right here. We're finally starting to see the, like,

all of these storms, the JetBrains IDE

Yeah. I

can be done in plain CSS. You know? Nesting's going in in fact, they're even better in plain CSS because they run-in what that looks like, and and maybe we'll response from a 139 Mhmm. The the poor thing go back to the last one, which is Webpack, is working in the browser pnpm in Versus Code. Right? It's just like a IT I don't know. What would you think? Or you think if you took every developer building JavaScript, like, the darker outline around, because you can see that, like, very clearly at a glance that Svelte has the highest percentage of want to learn in the future. That I was gonna point that out, which is Yeah. What do people want to learn? Like, what are people using now? React, Svelte, and Vue. But what do people want to learn? HTMLX look at,

Yeah. And soon, who knows once we once slash if we get mix ins and, functions, then that's all she wrote right there. I guess maybe loops. But yeah. It's gonna be yeah. Even, like, there are some features.

CSS on this this quite a bit, but, like, I think it looks like almost nobody even knows what what that is. And, yeah, like, Tailwind's huge. Sass is huge. And the Sass one is interesting because there's no way for me to, like, unit test some of the functions just written in such a way.

like, we did it again. We did a show on, like, can you drop SASS? And, like, almost all of the features of SASS

our surprises and and what we think about, the future of web dev.

It's a really great survey because it kinda gives you a glimpse into higher than I thought it would be as Wes. 10%.

where the industry is at right now. So we're gonna go through the the result and and sort of talk about, TypeScript almost always Wes I'd run into somebody using Lodash, I think, I could I could it, gives you all kinds of cool stats. I used it for my last 2 flights. I was like, this is fantastic. Gives you stats on, like like, historically,

what are people actually using and and what are people moving towards. And it it gives a there's, like, almost 7,000 people have taken or 6,000 people have taken this,

of used and liked. When we talked to Tanner, he certainly made me like a believer in all the stuff he was doing. So, yeah, it's it's nice to see that doing doing well. Apollo ESLint kinda holding on there a little bit. 25% is not nothing, but, yeah, I'm I'm I haven't heard about Apollo in a little while. I don't know what their status is, to be honest. Yeah. I that's a great question. I don't know as well. It's it's been a while

since I've I've used Apollo. Sort of I think, like all things, GraphQL went a little bit more enterprise y, the slow on use of of jQuery. I know that, like, it's been gone for, what, like, 10 years or so, but Asia, Europe.

Not surprising given,

But, yeah, 94% of people

one of the the people here who are in that 9%.

It is funny. Anytime we, like, post things on YouTube, we occasionally get comments from people that are like, TypeScript's a waste of time. And it's like, okay, buddy. It's that's you. You're Just given,

Let's talk about build tools. TypeScript, 96%

Yeah. Yeah. So if you're not on TypeScript and you're one of those people that's holding out, you are part of the 9.4%.

or 90% of people have used TypeScript.

you know, it's I Wes, 90% is a lot. 90% is a lot to to I guess that is anybody.

ish, you know, like a new typed version of The hilariousness that I'm,

Actual types. Yeah. From an authoring perspective, yeah, I think we're Right. So the what is the most used in, like, library between Lodash, jQuery, quite a few people still have dedicated QA.

that I know. Hey. And guess what? It's over for Versus Code. Cursor has officially killed

And we did get TypeScript running support within Node. It's in all of the other JavaScript run times.

That might be TypeScript. Might be something else. We'll see.

JavaScript will turn into something like TypeScript. 16% of people agreed with that statement. What do you think about that? given the options which you can imagine most of them, you know, plain CSS,

that via anything. Like, you should be able to run I don't find myself reaching for Axios all that often,

and became the new front end standard. I believe that So

It kinda feels like JS part of Houdini. Yeah. Okay. So Yes. Maybe we can explain what at property is. Do you wanna give a stab, or do you want me to Yeah. No. I'll give a stab. It's basically, you could think of it as, like, types for CSS variables.

a look. So let's start with the framework aspect of this. This is talking about what frameworks have you used in the last year. And, also, the results of the survey are kinda nice Wes they're they're relatively simple. It's just like,

where we can we can write types in JavaScript, and then you can simply consume Yes. But I I have been looking into can you just buy trend of popularity is performance.

I It's the thing that makes it so the classic example is I can I can with at property, I can animate a gradient? don't look at the styling tools one yet. Okay.

all standardize on on one way going forward.

That's a little bit too small. 53% of people said that TypeScript overtook JavaScript

package author. Sorhas. Sanity Sorhas delightful HTTP request. It is a will continue, but I think it's more or less like the feature set of PWAs

simple HTTP client Bos on fetch, specifically.

a prolific I got something for you, Wes. Yes. This is gonna be good. What's

It's from would start to overtake Cypress for some reason. I couldn't tell you why. And I do wanna say,

1200 from Asia,

used and liked out of all respondents? That seems really high in view. 44.8%

information from what could be considered like a a wider breadth of the industry.

Yeah. I Yes. It's perfect. And ESLint Replit's one of these things that I it keeps I keep seeing it. It's it seems to be getting really popular. It seems to be big in the AI space. I need to give that a a fair shake because I I feel like it's becoming we will get that

do you did you use it and like it? Did you use it and dislike it? Or or the opposite? I was so I was tweeting all of the stuff that was announced

is that it feels like it's out of our bubble a bit, where some of the state of, you know, React or whatever, those those tend to feel like awesome forward thinking features that, before all of the

and then 15%

is pretty good. And, like, fair point. I never heard of the survey, before,

And the most used and liked framework is React coming in at 70%

for this one, it seems to skew way heavy I also the other day, JetBrains announced this. But it it seems like people just from reason about. Whereas, like, with with Vite, you almost don't even need for a lot of projects, you don't even need config.

use and dislike, which you can kind of expect that. I think that's not very that surprising, but Svelte JS. Svelte's got what? 25%

WISTS survey is is always going to be,

a survey that's representative

in web dev. Yeah. So it's nice to see

which is is good maybe. Maybe it shows a little bit of a different,

yeah, given

Yeah. 70, 80% of people using continuous integration right now. I don't know what the other 20% of the people are doing. Like, are you FTP ing and dragging and dropping? What's the alternative to Yeah. Continuous integration in in these days? Rsync.

again, that's Cloudflare's equivalent to that. It's to sort of

a platform as a service. Right? It's not you don't get a Linux box and log in and install Node. You just, like, set up some config file, and you give it your git Deno, and it will build. And that, I've I've used that a couple times, but it never really took off,

JS you don't have to worry about access and having having code on the their local machines,

on here. I would expect to see maybe Google IDX on here, I think that what that means is that countries. I think it's a pretty good and which will die? has all of their devs

JS Fiddle, you're post you're posting a 10 year old,

extremely popular outside of my bubble.

You know? Like, the hosted Versus Node Vercel rather than Codespaces typed JavaScript file in the browser without having a syntax error. You know? Meaning, like, the engine should be able to strip out those TypeScript 4 it runs it. And then, like, I I think that we'll see once we get that, we'll start And, Straight is that is that in all the browsers now? Oh, yeah. Because it was for a while. I I remember talking about it on this podcast, like like, 5 years ago. Oh, it's big, and it has been.

breeze

StackBlitz, you're posting your demos.

you're posting your broken code.

Easy peasy. I'm surprised that yarn is still at 21%. I felt like yarn had such a big fall from grace when they had their whole, like, v two thing came out. I felt like that was gonna be like a an Angular two moment for them, but it seems like they're holding on. PNPM, 56% of people have no opinion on it. They don't even know what it is.

that's what I use. It's at 19.9%.

I like PNPM. There's occasionally some, like, little weird things for with it. But for the most part, PNPM handles a lot of stuff really well. And I don't know. I'm gonna I'm gonna I don't wanna speak out of,

that Google act or, GitHub actions were able to just do it.

I used a bunch of these, and I never liked any of them. Would you wait why it makes sense that if you can put things closer to Git and GitHub where people are already using GitHub, pretty predictable that it would be CSS modules. And then after that, style components.

Travis. There's 7%, Travis.

GitHub will take Vercel. And I think this is a a prime example of it. It's not like GitHub actions are the most friendly, fun thing to work on in the world, Yeah. Yeah. Word operating systems, majority of people on Mac. Yes. What's up? That's kinda interesting to me. Like, doesn't usage here.

Semaphore,

CircleCI or Travis? CI, Essential oils have alcohol in them. They're not the right thing for candles will catch on fire. So Alright. Alright. Lesson learned there.

We should let's let's do that episode again because when we recorded, we said there is nothing, but hopefully one Node. But now we have proposals for those last few

which is part of container queries, but it allows you to essentially do if statements in in CSS. You know? If this Boolean is turned on, then apply all of the CSS.

Miriam Suzanne's working on.

Maybe we should, like, do an update as to that because there are now style queries that have come out. There is now a proposal for mix ins

how have they managed to make this such a maze? How have they managed to make just finding my where my credit card information is, like, so many clicks and and and such a a maze to get to? I I really truly don't understand it. It's shocking.

site and Azure's developer platform. Yeah. They're all just I've already raid railed against a a couple of times. But, man, they're just they're rat's nest of all kinds of stuff. Yeah.

not only looks like the same as the last one, but it's somehow just, like, slightly worse. I don't need I, like, don't know what's going on. And then I went to, like, go through the billing experience, and I was just like, how But there are some legitimately

Here's the new sign in UI. And somehow the new sign in UI Because that Sanity, ASTRO. I mean, ASTRO

Stackblitz, Redux toolkit coming in at a

I got no vested interest, but like, what we're talking about, which is like a

people are like, too late. I was like, brother,

Yeah.

Yeah. For real. And and, again, it's not even on this chart. So I agree with that. The APIs are coming in slowly,

at GitHub Vercel, and, like, I'm no I'm no GitHub Stan. I'm no Versus Code Stan. I like it. I'm here for whatever's the best. I'm a give them star, so I have to like it. Wes. Scott has has a vested interest.

we're focusing on how do we make these apps fast and feel good.

like, what I'm reading for this, performance is high. Responsiveness is high. Server rendering is high.

That's I I I'm hoping that doesn't mean, like, responsive CSS. I think everybody's right in responses. That probably means like

Mhmm. So what what will lose popularity? GraphQL,

Keep in mind, like, this is, like, JavaScript, think it will will gain, and 30% think it will go down. It's a pretty good split.

and AWS, I guess. Yep. You Yeah. DigitalOcean Node on there,

going to be on there. Cloudflare

Hosting. Can you can you guess the top hosting providers? to track flights for probably 10 years Node, and someone put me on to using Flighty,

because that's sort of where the the use case for a lot of GraphQL stuff is.

Let's take a look at at state management because like normal Yeah. So you had one of the I don't know if it's the creator of Playwright or one of the the guys who works on Playwright

it's really evolved ESLint, like, a it's

kind of also showed up.

of people wanting to learn it, but, hey.

maybe one of the smoothest,

It was one of those ones that you felt like how are they gonna differentiate themselves at first being a static site platform than just, like, the the whole thing being you can use any front end framework. To me, that wasn't super compelling until,

full stack frameworks to work in. And, again, SvelteKit has the highest want to learn in the future, which is pretty great for that team. I think it's a a good product. Yeah. I I don't know too much there. Gatsby with the lowest. That's also not shocking given that Wes Gatsby's trajectory has been. I'm surprised it's even at 9.4%

So the highest

I think most people are not on a Mac if you were to

to actually gauge.

But if you were I bet if you were to poll

Mhmm. Let's wrap it up with the future trends. In your opinion, which of the following trends will gain popularity Alright. It's called Core Pack. So Core Pack is an experimental tool that helps with managing versions of your package manager.

72% I think you're underestimating

Yeah. I mean, I'm so biased here. I can't give you a straight answer because I'm gonna just just say yes. That's what I like and prefer. And I think it's Yeah. A smoother experience for me. But yeah. I mean, you often hear people being, like, who even uses Mac? I mean, what we're doing in in solid and view that, MobX would,

do you think they'd be mostly Mac?

user experience JS how is that different from developers? Like, how it is for the people using your application? do most things in end to end just because of makes sense in a browser context. To me, personally, that said, I know unit testing JS, like, I just never have needed it. I don't get it. I know you used it and liked it, Wes, in the past,

Sure. Yeah. User experience. We want them to be faster, smaller, you know, quicker apps. I guess that all falls under user experience. Right? setting for people who are wondering, because I mentioned this is a setting called link workspace packages.

a lot of people using it. So, I do believe

Responsiveness.

finds find which items overlap each other, find which items use the rotate value, which is good because it's annoying to even if you're not using a key frame, it's annoying to have to write transform, rotate. I'd rather just say rotate Yeah. 2, Wes. Do that, folks.

methods that allow you to intersect arrays,

people who who we've talked about just on this show. Yeah. We'll link it up in the show notes. But just JS a good alternative because you can just grab 1 or 2,

are not included in either. Like, there's very few

write that in some of the newer methods or whatever. And there are, like, some weird use cases where you're, like, you have to, like, pick and whatever. But even that there's all these new JavaScript And I was just like, oh, no. Here it comes. Here it comes. Here it comes. Yes. I know. Yeah. We'll get there eventually.

stuff where where I think you even need it. And that that's not to say it's bad. Lodash is is fast, and it's it's well tested and all of that stuff, which is great. But when I see it used, I often think, I don't think you Node to pull that in. That's how I feel too. And I do reach for just,

fairly close tied second,

at 11%. So Zuzdand, quite a bit more popular than Jotai.

and then MobX only at 8%, Jotai because they use Outlook for their email is extremely high.

come on, React. Give us give us something better. You know? The context API, it yeah. It's okay. Set Scott, put it in context API, but there's all these, like, gotchas and downsides to it. But, obviously,

that's what what people are actually using.

only 7% for used and and liked. So HTMX

but then again, it's new. So 7% is is probably a big jump up from where it was in the past. It it is it is wild to see

that something that most people weren't aware of, like, 2 or 3 years ago is is now this high.

gets, like, the hype award. Right? It has hype,

Meanwhile, something like Phoenix, which is fairly mature, and even like Alpine JS JS only at, like, 7 and 1.8%.

because it's the 2nd most wanting to learn thing. But in reality

insight tool. We've heard us talk about them a 1000000 times. Basically, interceptors 75% And that's sometimes fine, but I I'm I'm always hesitant to do that.

slow. You got issues. Sentry's gonna give you insights into why that is and help you fix it. Check it out. Century.i0forward/ I remember watching it on an iPad at the gym. There's this is like what you know, like, they have, like, those core moments in your, like, web development history. You just remember where you were when you learn something,

He's doing great today. Probably not as great as possibly could be, but, all of that stuff. But it seems like from these answers, like, code pen, you're posting cool CSS demos. Code sandbox, a little, web app for that, and then I I used some of the features like turning the tinting the the URL bar and being able to bookmark it and putting

Node thing I really like about this survey

you got a website that's buggy, Code pen coming in high. Code Sanity,

Word.

the error exception performance AWS. What's their their Like, out of the 6,000 people that replied, 3,000 from Europe, we wanna talk to you real quick about Sentry. Sentry is

30% use cases unless you're doing some pretty heavy data Have you used micro front ends? This is this is kind of an interesting one because

about Node, it's Scott, like, part of a library where it reaches in for other utilities.

underscore? We'll say underscore. Yep. It's it's underscore. Yeah. So 30% of people are not interested in learning underscore.

Which makes sense. I mean Very close under that is jQuery, though. I don't even know what I'm using I would use Lodash for today anyways so that I couldn't just hit

Most not interested. I'm gonna say Stack Overflow answer. Accurate. Very accurate. It's deadly accurate.

has the highest no opinion because I don't think anyone even knows what is. Okay. Then what about, since since Lodash was the highest, and what's the the, feeling the heat now. Linting tools, ESLint. Everybody's using ESLint. Everybody's using Prettier.

You just reach for the methods when you need it. And I

myself. Yeah. I I have, like, the opinion of Lodash is not bad.

say this is a a length or a percentage or a degree or something like that, and then the browser will know, oh, this key frame updated a variable, which is a degree. I can animate degrees. Mhmm. So then it will actually give yourself the the smooth animation or transition that you're looking for. Yeah. Counterpoint, I just use the, transform properties, like rotate as a property.

20 degrees. And then wherever that variable is referenced, by default, it would just snap because it it doesn't know what the type of the the CSS variable is. But with that property, you can, like, you you laugh, but if you sign up for AWS serverless functions,

But the downside to that is if you have other transforms,

But, like, that's that's great if you are straight up doing it. But if you are using, like, that variable in a calc or something like that, you know, I wanna I I wanna turn this to 12 degrees, but I need to calculate

somewhere. I forget where. Maybe even to to

and that was one of them. That's a weird weird remember that I have.

Man, I I did that. My very first one of the 1st tutorial courses I ever bought was from, I don't know if you remember, Peepcode.

I bought a, a course from Peepcode on Amber, and I took it on the airplane to

yeah. I forget. I I took it on the airplane somewhere. Wes did the whole tutorial course and, like, left being like, alright. You could do Ember. I guess I could see how this works. Yeah. That's I learned Express of my bubble proposal was where we can write TypeScript it will run as JavaScript.

I get it. Yeah. It's simple. But I still would want maybe it's a little something more more. You know? It just goes to show that, like, what part of Houdini are they using? I don't know. Houdini. Like, maybe with it making a demo. But I disagree. I think that people are using at property Yeah.

the view in in Svelte world, state management picture is a little bit more complex as we've we've talked about a lot of times on this show. And so a lot of these are React specific options except for,

Mostly developers.

gotta love it. Right? Yeah. Gotta love it. Testing.

Yeah. QA big. People often are are using unit Wes primarily than end to end than integration. I personally then, cool survey. I was really stoked to be a part of it. So, Yes.

Mostly QA. So 10% of people saying mostly QA. So, yeah, that's a bit of a shame, but it's just like a

Who is responsible for testing your software? Developers and QA.

2nd place is Wes build. Wow. 3rd place is Webpack. So Webpack, really,

which is pretty complex, and it that was it was a joy to build. I was I was really happy about that.

almost as many people GitHub

easy,

line v config,

You just use it. And then if you do need config, like, it's not hard. Like, I have a 120 I I thought so too, but I looked it up.

use and dislike Webpack as use and like Webpack, which is, in a key frame,

Webpack has become such a huge thing, and the API is not look. So let's start with the framework aspect Drag well, syntax.

30% of people Scott interested.

Tailwind,

potentially any of these other hyped ones, but in reality, like, what else is there? CSS modules

which, man, props for nailing all of those. I mean, it's easy to think about

I'm going to say vanilla.

is the next highest one, which is,

and the the levels

Shout out to Max who was also at our, Syntax meetup. Yeah. Author of stub components. He's great to talk to. But, yeah,

I'm gonna say sass because, like, nobody hates sass.

Who do we talk to about microfinance? I've had a lot of people reach out Mhmm. About the topic, but they it's almost always that they're from a company trying to hawk their thing. Mhmm.

but it's not something I've I've dipped into. And I think that this is a show that we need to have a guest on for And what you can do with at property is you can just update the variable in the key frame. So you could say dash dash rotate value

the whole idea of, like, microservices

Yeah. Man, native fetch isn't hard. I get that there's some niceties from Axios, but, like, is it that hard to implement those that you gotta bring in a library for it? Yeah. Yeah. I think there even is some

do something different than what people who are in web development because that might be the next thing. You know? Yeah. Totally. A couple last ones, build tools, Vite, by far, take the cake. No surprise. Vite Rules, big fan of Vite.

Yeah. Missing on here,