Drizzle: The TypeScript SQL ORM

you make it worse, especially for newcomers.

the the auto complete pops down. And you you hit enter, and and it all works. And sometimes there's errors. And then there's, like, another level of it, which is, I think, where you guys are on. I'm curious who does a lot of that work is,

Yeah. Even with TypeScript nowadays, it does feel like

Do you think people,

a perfect sweet spot on this gradient of needs. And we made sure Drizzle is,

I guess people often talk about, like, from and to. And we still think this is really great feature of our SQLite build. Yeah.

to the actual query.

write the actual queries,

And

type safety.

that a lot of people think about ORM click on user's table object

open, that stuff was there. And then

on other side, JS like electricity at all. You don't have Internet for sure. You don't have even you don't have, like, a mobile,

In this case, if you will look at this, from this point of view, just ESLint ORM as a simple tool that help you to map

And then we wrote in the Java style, a lot of classes,

Yeah. So, I mean, that that kind of, gets into the the why make an ORM thing. I know people always say either use an ORM or you end up building 1 yourself. So you guys actually took on the the task of building 1 yourself.

like, actually writing the, like, heavy lifting.

or the filter you Bos to the where statement.

Yeah. Mhmm. But my TypeScript level originally came from the back end development.

and then we were routed to the new version of just objects and functions.

make DrizzleKit

I was originally in charge of Drizzle Kit. I So we call it query prop plus CRUD.

in type inference,

Python,

result schema to be source of truth or not. You can introspect your database and just use the database as a source of truth. You can opt in to drizzle, which is

we had.

and other stuff. And then we sort of had an opportunity to write a an as we envision it in the

Yeah. It's in public for Yarn, maybe year and a half. Thanks to docs from SST helped us

type inference stuff, And we were going through conversations with PlanetScale, and we were going through conversations with.

do I need an ORM? And

and just help you to iterate faster.

And then you have to reorder everything. And then when you

Yeah.

nobody except highly experienced, and not having to maintain the burden of common dialect and trying to not introduce new things and don't break Mhmm. Wes previous ones.

ORM folks are like, yes. Yes. Yes. And Yeah. Kinda like the ORM stuff. Yeah.

And, listed all the problems

data frameworks and not yeah. Like, HyperNet, not ORM.

Java and Kotlin projects.

it should be everywhere opt in. It should be type safe. It should not have generation steps.

API, etcetera, etcetera. So we list everything down. And to this day, we follow all of all of those,

Just use query building. Just just just to find your schema, see the types, and make sure if you change the table, you will see some query that we changed

So

you will have, like, a massive TypeScript for browsing database? Yeah.

And that 1 in particular was TypeScript, For the schema, you'll have to change

Oh, yeah.

And, we were lacking the

that you can pass the wrong column to the Wes statement

Oh, can you talk a little bit more about about that? Like, what does that mean? What what JS what does a 100% type safety mean when you're building a an ORM, and why is that bad?

like, 95% of the TypeScript, then Wes sort of realized that we went through TypeScript. We went through realized really fast that of the battery. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If we were Linux guy, Drizzle would stop. Yeah.

We've been through Mybattis either the core or the knowledge base or the community management.

stating this publicly in the Twitter, like, That's the beauty

more robust and sustainable to iterations and breaking changes so that the TypeScript will tell us that you added additional something. Now you have to put everything in all these places.

about the API decisions.

anybody working on data and data projects needs an ORM in every project? Is that,

And we did it for Java.

Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. So,

generate migrations with ResoluteKit. You can opt in to apply migrations with ResoluteKit

Yeah. So, originally, Dan was the 1st, person on the team who rewrote

Those problems, they sounded silly to us.

developers with TypeScript were able to parse those. We realize this is gonna be a huge deal breaker for us.

And if you want to see all of the errors in your application,

It has more downsides than benefits.

just to, like, we sort of came to the common agreement and it's prefixed with SQLite. If you're using PostgreSQL, we have everything for Postgres. And we developed them as a separate dialects, as a separate code basis.

write the exact thing that will

the class based approach

like, for year, it we were writing it in Java, actually, not in JavaScript or TypeScript. Really? And then we just wrote it to JavaScript and actually because we needed it there as well. So, like, the first first thing was it was project in Java, and there were no good programs.

object relational mapping. Just map my data to the TypeScript objects, and then I will deal with them. Those this is what ORM about. And when you hear all those things like Oram about, they're making you

how was that that process, and and what informed the design decisions you guys had?

TypeScript is its own language, and being able to infer the fields from a function filter, which gives you access to the different methods,

And the guys from have been blaming us that we don't have, like, a 100% type Sanity, the best common denominator.

Database Twitter is wild. You know? Like, some of the most opinionated, aggressive people out there on Twitter. And I think that's why Drizzle has such a funny online presence because Yeah. It's a lot of these guys are insufferable.

And, if you surpass that line and you try to and, Hydrasar.

Our account always responds no by losing money, invest I mean, not losing. Me investing money, I would say. We are investing money into the future. Yeah.

The like,

And, on the back end development, there is a a certain line.

I I strongly against that. I'm I'm all about making it as simple as possible.

or the join or you can join the wrong column, etcetera, this is now gonna be way easier I I guess feel the

the some particular parts. It's not gonna be a big chunk of work.

you so much that you forget about SQL

pluggable into any of those.

And second, if we have, like, layers of,

You don't want a production application out there that, well, you have no visibility into in case something is blowing up, and you might not even know it. So head on to reduce century.ioforward/

your database data to TypeScript object, I guess it's really important to have in any,

100%

at least on the some basic where you're building stuff. I mean,

We follow all those rules except 1.

syntax.

of getting into this TypeScript, and it will break.

to the

It has to be it has to have a discoverable IP everything type safe. If you change anything,

Because in the Node run, a 100% type safety turned out to be a bad thing.

don't use migrations if you don't want to. Don't use some relational API like.

that smooths the pinpoint of connecting your data to your type system. And even the, like, ORMs I was using in the past, if they didn't have a good deep connection to the type system, I was writing types in, like, 4 different places, and it just got out of hand really quickly. So, yeah, I think y'all do a a great job of that.

SQLize, Prisma, etcetera.

developer experience

What kind of stuff were you working on that it Wes was in Java?

We sort of having this strict schema is a restriction,

or is there someone that's just, like, a sick person that loves that stuff?

Going from 0 to 100, you'll want to check out Sentry at century.ioforward/

your TypeScript types knowledge,

I wanted to add that, first of all, on Twitter, Node

So you were just doing taking on projects for for companies? So do you have, like, a company then? Yeah. We've been doing TypeScript,

conceptually the ORM. It should not be complicated,

all of the queries and and the filters is is extremely complex. So who who is it? It is is it all of you guys that are working on the the TypeScript stuff,

or the ORM itself. So yeah. Yeah. Sick.

We've been doing outsource.

And I think you definitely should use ORM

work on the database.

previously, Yeah. On Ocean man, Wes can choose like 2 kilometers, 5 kilometers, or 10 kilometers in the sea, and you can just do this race

I guess the problem there

So each and every project will have

to the core of ORM.

So, we had an iteration where we're like, okay. We're gonna You can, compose the filters, fully functional

or myself, And it protects you from doing wrong stuff further down the road.

in any code Bos. Yeah.

to just grow. So for us making this first video about us.

we know that, and it's a deliberate obstruction possible on top of SQL so other people

JS much as you can and do caching for you and do a lot of this stuff that basically

We should infer everything and make you

And,

I I mean, we've been bombarded by this question for, like, over a year. And we usually have a a chitchat in Twitter, and we

Wes,

And about relational API, I just wrote a post about that that we think that our, like, our rational API right now is awful right here. So for 8 years, I would do in professional swimming open, what decisions were good and what decisions were bad from them, and then imply it in what we have. So for example, right now, we thought we did good relations API. And now after time, we evaluated that it's bad and we need to change it.

and you wanna say where the

And maybe we changed a bit, but,

greater than, less than, equal to, etcetera,

So we've had a a vastly different values

is really handy because then you can click through to it. Because I have some projects where

poking that goes on along online.

those are already built. You already can use them on projects. You already can evaluate

And I hope, I don't know, the latest Prisma Yeah. Actually, this is one of the important things in Drizzle. We don't follow, like, dry principle at all. We just copy all the stuff we have. So we have postscripts dialect. We just Scott to my sequel, change the naming,

And,

help people transition And,

as opposed to Prisma, and then introducing new features without trade offs.

It just feels like a little bit more solid to me than, how I've done it in other instances.

We were vastly different from Prisma, and But,

above the query. And what people, don't think about usually

I hope that we

complex, relation query we have.

and then put the, our

generation for any

I wanna talk maybe a little bit about the difference in approach between some of the other big ORMs or at least the newer ones. You know, I I guess you could say Prisma is still a a newer ORM, all things considered.

completely the relation's API schema and the filters where you will have an object, just an object as you ask. But like it's just Sanity it won't be functions. It will be an object where you can do and or like great equals all sort of stuff there.

I'm curious if you ever have calls with them or anything.

possible, behind the scenes on other products.

to be honest, we took stuff like that. And I was all about

slightly different ways of approaching something, and I can just, like, feel myself being like, this is not what I was expecting, but there's probably a really good reason behind it that I'm not a good enough developer to know. And that's why I I asked that. So that was a that's a great answer. Yeah. I've always seemed to like the importing myself and using that as a filter.

and then use

like, we differ from them, and I'll ex explain that. But also, we took, some approaches from them that are familiar for you if you like, relations API is really similar to Prisma's Node, and thanks them for that.

we are vastly different thanks thanks to the And we sort of listed all of those, and we made them manifest of how we see,

And we were betting on the SQL like first, which are our sponsors,

Yeah. I think you think about that. The the benefit of

queries. There is and filters as well a bit hard to understand.

do having that API.

people saying to us that, okay, it's hard. You always need to import those tables. You always need to import those functions. It's it's really bad and awful, but when I have a big code Bos, and I personally when doing such stuff,

payload and you can ask TablePlus.

And all things before, we already had existing tool where we can just check it right now because already people using it. So,

well yes. So,

and we understand that. So we did this, like, 1st iteration after using it. We understood, okay, our relation

where is this defined? You know? And then I gotta go look for my model's,

it's so easy to just

Yarn you guys friendly with the the Prisma folks at all? I know there's a a lot of,

those object inside the fields just and so on. So we can just infer that.

instruments on the market and the most flexible one.

branches.

we truly believe that we enforce them to follow our game. So we truly believe that we made the most balanced sort

I often check query and then I need to understand what else I have in schema, for example. And it's easy for me in the project to navigate

It's very easy for them to can build on top, whatever they want. Mhmm. And you will see on Twitter that people even in in their own just project they do for,

to write a filter like that, there's there's kinda 2 ways. Right? You you have

to compare them versus the the Prisma way, which is you can just add a property on the filter, which would be greater than, less than, or equal to.

And the thing we do like, did more for that, we took the API, but we did this 1 query,

which you can, pass through the function as a filter.

to

Like, thing is Wes are a bit

elaborate that we went through every possible way for you to compose the filters in the WER. And this is the best, Yeah. Yeah.

So if you're using SQLite, we have everything for SQLite We'd potentially pick one of those, because this is number 1.

something from both of them.

and go directly

from Prisma.

So, like, Drizzle versus Prisma versus, I I suppose, Keasly, is it? Keasley, I believe, is is one of the the big ones. Do you feel like your approach differs completely from theirs? And and if so, like, what makes your approach better?

going through the API, the half, trying to use them on projects. And

is that for whoever's gonna build on top of our API,

those 2 tools helped us a lot also with the decisions we have because

performance first,

which has dialect specific, So you can opt in to use Drizzle at any point of your business needs. You can opt in to use query builder or relational queries. You can opt in to which was which, which made a huge leap to our library.

the number of comments is greater than than 300.

as opposed to Kisli.

from Drizzle. And then there's relational API where I can use, like, both things.

we build the query builder we've launched the relational queries.

The case is our query builder is not inferring anything from schema. You put schema inside query like DB inserts user stable, for example. So you put an object inside the query

Yes. You will have to import, and that's the only downside. But you now have the composable API,

explicitly importing the schema is

where you're gonna select some podcasts

I yeah. So I can explain. You you are talking about 2 places where I can use it. So first is like a query builder that is SQL like. There, you can use only functions that you can,

Gupta.

folder somewhere and and find it out. So the the explicitly importing it and I the reason I asked that is because often, I come across these, like, Obviously, a lot going on in Ukraine right now. Yeah. What's what's life like in Ukraine right now?

younger than than those 2 tools. And before, Wes public, we were

upgrades for performance when they did joins finally.

and, to do.

which has for whatever changes in database is gonna reflect on the UI. And we've also made the before it's gonna become, like, a fully

It will be changed. But in SQL like query builder, it will

the show is equal to this number or where,

From some like, we took more for some, it took less.

And we went with the query builder first, and then we introduced queries

define in schema is hard to follow, understand

still be the functions.

And we have this big discussion for relational we do where we changed

lowest

from the world to ours.

it's just magic, and I say, okay. Well,

You need to put it inside. And to put it inside, you need to have a function where we need to put this this value, for example. And a lot of import,

specifically someone who's coming from Prisma. Probably a lot of our audience, was probably coming from Prisma, and you you write a filter

change the features, then we copy to escalate, change to rename and do the stuff. And then if you need to add anything to Postgres,

DrizzleKit

that,

a migration tool because Uh-huh. Migrating data between databases would be a way more,

from PostgreSQL mostly the copycats

and just having a separate dialect per specific database.

or talked to anyone

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just wanted to add that Alex said that that he's, like, for queries API, and I'm fully joined guy. So I'm

Yeah.

like, how much of the the code would be different from

were, introducing relational queries to the,

in the long run, it's easier. Yeah.

Yeah. We don't have, like, a huge budgets. We have a lot of motivation,

of what you need. If you want just some hobby project, just use Torsosculitis

the 2 things you said there. 1st, like, copy paste driven development. You're starting to see that a lot more in, like, React component world lately as well where people are like, I'm sick of high order components

And I also wanted to spoil developers in Drizzle

And after that, you need to choose the core. So you chose, like, pause rescue. And after that, you can find the providers who can give you the most

I love being able to have a a GUI for that type of thing. So, like, you might be used to, like, a a TablePlus or, let's start real quick with pnpm explanation of what Drizzle is for anybody who is Node to another? You know, like, let's let's say I'm going from Postgres to, You can't just, like, connect to a string and view your data, which is what everybody wants.

to MySQL. We just don't believe in that stuff. And, we decided that Yeah. We've worked with Mongo for a long time too.

And we will just fork the Bos SQL dialect for them. And then we're gonna

in this concept of, I can just now switch the database those numbers in the open source world, in the Java land. And then when we fully pivoted to the TypeScript

the

Upfront. That's that's really interesting. Like,

which is gonna be a sweet spot for every other rail that RAM that's gonna come out. They will have to be here in the the most Yeah. Perfectly when you have, like,

responded back. That was

Oh, yes.

the future of ORMs, asks if, going to meet in the middle now, core,

with them, but never something specific.

really easy for us. So always, like, do joins. Joins. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Old school joins. And the thing about choosing databases, it's really, really important.

that we're sort of sneak the picked, the broccoli or bro CLI.

project?

us not having, like, a common dialect for everything

in terms of the development experience, but you've gotta have the Yeah. We had 1 call with meeting,

SQL experience better. Yeah. And you're making the

So you gotta have a query builder, without damaging anything else as the Ocean man.

the, like, database provider, there JS, like, a core of database. It's PostgreSQL.

in terms of query or CRUD, it will depend on the business demand solely.

headquarters, Mhmm. And then they continue to work with Andrew. So Andrew and Dan are both core contributors

they have, like, a version of PostgreSQL with its own, internals with them.

I'm not a big fan of. But we know that the SQL is gonna stand, and it's not going anywhere. And we just wanna make the balanced sweet I truly believe that they they had the philosophy that you should never write a scale. And seems like we forced them to go to SQL world 2.

because we've been sponsored by many databases out there.

That feels like it has to be, like, one of the most complex aspects. I mean, considering how many different technologies you support, something that you've got? I know. Because there's, like, always a conversation about, And, yeah, rock the Drizzle shirt. I actually I'm not wearing mine because I wore it yesterday. So I I've been loving this shirt.

are you using the query or select?

all of them have different make some impact on that, and they took some assumption from us as well. So Yeah. It's great for both worlds, actually. Yeah. Yeah. Totally.

I will be honest. I don't really like Wes SQL.

MySQL Workbench. You guys just casually built a database viewer as well? That that makes a lot of sense. Because, we often talk about the TypeScript development on the show as there's, like, a couple levels of it. Right? Like, there's there's 1 level, which is most people, which is just simply using it. You know? You write a little bit of TypeScript, but simply just or you can import those those methods themselves, greater than, less than, whatever.

basically editing your your database and viewing your data, which

chief operational officer there.

what are the other ones that I've used in the past? SQL Pro,

The database is a tricky question So we've been through Hibernate.

Yeah. We are all about the you have to commit a particular dialect, and then yeah. And we're talking. Mhmm. Oh, okay.

out there. Oh, yeah. But we send them the hoodies we've printed

I'd say. Okay. Yeah.

to iterate,

which is a a GUI for

plus queries.

at least in the TypeScript world, is gonna be

like, influenced by this statement is not a potential user for our case and letting him use all the tools.

for full stack developers, front end developers migrating to back end and lazy back end developers who don't wanna.

And

we have and then you gotta provide the easy to use relational API

Either it's heavy on reads, heavy on writes, you need to do sharding, you need to do there are a lot of things we need to think about.

I believe he's his can both spread the open source,

So they should use Drizzle or ORM.

and

yeah, chunk of work than changing schemas in your code and queries.

MySQL.

and composability.

we are working on behind the scenes and, potentially introduce this Yarn as an open source for That's cool. That's one really cool thing that Drizzle does JS there is obviously Drizzle and all the adapters, but there is,

basic CRUD we actually are losing money right Node,

You know what's better than that? Copy paste. I can just do that directly.

the good solid

You just copy it and that's all. If you have a feature that's in 3 of them, yeah, you need to do 3 times Node thing. But

you just edit there. You don't need to think about obstructions, how you should do in a way it will be in Postgres, but won't be in MySQL.

of I didn't come up with anything.

Also, just picking it up, picking your database up front and, a brand new app, what would you use both in database as well as,

to Berlin

We're just here for the benefits of it all. Yeah. Alright. I do wanna ask. So Drizzle supports Postgres, MySQL, and SQLite. And then of all of those, they support, like, many different implementations,

This API, like, the query API is superior we had with our ORM, so we transitioned.

efficiently.

lots of, like, hosted versions. You Node, Cloudflare d one is a little bit weird, Vercel,

builder for you to build any kind of a SQL query.

about to build working on And they were like, come on, peeps. Just use Beekeeper. Just use So we charge them when we have electricity. And when go to and don't have electricity, Adrizzle Studio as an export We call it senior library for it's gonna be like a

This is a very interesting story.

Let's talk about Drizzle Studio,

spot. Yeah. I appreciate that, though, because we we have some projects on Prisma. We have some on Drizzle. We like to try everything out. So if y'all could keep on improving each other, that'd be great for us.

It's MySQL.

Oh, that's funny. Yeah. When we

I'm joking.

and all that stuff you need to think about when you're doing some project.

whoever is, So, yeah, this is something

it's just some fence in your provider or that it has some specific feature. You always need to remember that behind we made Drizzle just

and DrizzleStudio.

It's SQLite.

and learning. I'm I'm curious, like, if you did have to ever switch your database,

Yeah.

But, outstanding.

I know a lot of database providers are sponsoring us, but you don't need to choose it just because it's

like, obstructions and extensions.

Yeah.

but they never ever, a competitor it's fully deployable to a web application.

Yeah. We were talking through potential collaboration we're capable of adapting. So we are adapting and, most applications,

does that part get exhausting having to make sure that you're covering every angle? And, like, how do you how do you make sure that you don't introduce something that's going to to break 1 specific

Neon, things like that. I'm I'm curious if you were starting

Rather than that, we haven't met or called,

this is what I would do. But Or so very performance.

I usually lean to queries, of course, because it's simple and straightforward.

one thing. Like, it's impressive enough that you guys have have built this thing, but the thing thing we haven't mentioned yet is you guys are all from Ukraine. Right?

power stations,

overwhelming power. Yeah. You're not gonna understand what it is And we are going through conversations

this thing. I don't know how to Jeez. Really? It's it's it's really hard.

like, as I said, we can talk about that a lot of maybe something you're interested in.

you can't use it because it also Node an

about,

them. You just need time for that.

I have the iPhone. So we have this station here.

Yeah, man. I mean, there JS not only 3 of JS already. That's

16 hours a day without electricity

if you think about. Because, I mean, you can charge this big power bank. You can you can think about Starlink.

like, therapy or any anywhere anything that's, like, helping you to rest.

separate you by groups. So, for example, this area will have like, when this this was Java version of Drizzle RAM, we had

we supply the power to notebooks or the StuntLink. Yeah.

explosions, And we are the only one around

etcetera.

40 sales degrees.

Mhmm.

Oh, because

your Starlink, send it to Ukraine because I have the original one, which is apparently the best in in Ukraine. So you're you're running that on a big power bank? I'm I'm at my cottage right now, and I have the the Apple Watch. And when I go swimming, it immediately goes and shows you how deep you are. So I've been trying to, like, see how deep I can go without,

of thing that can generate electricity.

of whole power in Ukraine. So we have only 25%

So we have this, like, blue Yeti. We have this Show Bos. Like space to my schema and see what is inside and then go back. Mhmm. I can go from every part of query inside my schema and check it. Because as a developer,

just grinding through. Yeah.

and Internets and go into the

I mean, And, let's say And you can ask,

Yeah. Yeah. We Yeah.

In in any way, you can do that. You can go to swimming pool. You can go to some, to help us as developers and help other developers in our company

we're staying,

And,

And that's why

electricity from 10 AM to,

And, just because we are Scott, it depletes really quickly

Yeah. So seems like we found some ways how we can, like, schedule our day, how we can schedule I just hit generate, and it will show me. Oh, I hit push, and I just have it in my database right away. And I don't even know what happened under the hood.

in, like, the Internet

electricity is the least actually

be able to to

just doing this

Thinking about Wes, if it's possible, I mean, you should you should do that.

alone, we can talk for hours about that. Yeah. Talking short JS just it's Yarn, to be honest.

Outages.

Yeah. I'm I'm I'm you can try to explain. Said you have to schedule schedule your Internet and schedule your

Yeah. Yeah.

I don't know how we will be in Fahrenheit. It's a lot. No. It's a it's a Canadian podcast. We don't we don't convert for Americans. Yeah. The rest of the world listens. Yeah. Thank you. Well, it's 40 right now? That's 40. Right now. Yeah. We'll we'll convert we'll convert for the Americans.

an electricity to get to the power and get you the

Wow. That's

really, really smart, though, to be able to get that set up and,

productivity on the project? Do you feel like the project isn't inspired more inspired because of it, or is it just something you deal with?

It's draining. So

through, like, last I don't want

or, like, whatever. And right now Wes have, like, I'm working on Drizzle for quite some time. And

and it hits like Wes already,

have a power station. We have 2 car accumulators.

whoever is gonna tell you they know how it is, but they've never experienced this in their lives, there's no way I'm gonna believe them unless you, like,

in order to create, you have to have this creative energy. And,

Curfew. And Scott's like, how old are they? I'm like, no. It's not Node a age curfew. It's the it's gone. So there's Yeah. Tell us about that. There's outages of power and Internet?

before whatever because they have a, Alright. Yeah. A 104.

I I can actually show it to you. Yeah. Let's see. No. No. Don't leave. Don't leave. Just show us the MacBook here.

So, like, if talking,

Yeah. It, like, it should be in your routine.

because of the

also a subject,

Keith and Dini Crow.

months, we've got a lot of rockets hits our

positive in all senses. Yeah.

You need to do all that stuff.

for quite quite some time

Yeah. Yeah. And actually, like,

And right Node, we have, like,

it affects

Yeah. Okay. So Yeah. You need to use air conditionings,

schedule all of that stuff.

human psychological,

to work through those types of conditions. Do you do you feel like,

14,

Yeah. Right near you and your door is opened and windows

We have recently enlarged the Drizzle team, and, we now have 14 people

our government need to,

Oh, man. Like, props to you guys for that because, like, I I can't like I said, I can't even imagine what that is like,

so we have Internet on air outages.

Wow. Yeah. And the experience of that is

What Wes the

we

it's crazy right now. We have around

we're hoping that get rid of the Starlink soon because we're getting fiber, where I am. And a lot of people say, hey. When you

for discussion.

Okay.

So electricity JS, like, the easiest thing here, to be honest.

when you're done with your,

Yeah. Outages. And, what was the word I I used, Scott? You said curfew.

so we can work, how we can

and 8 hours only visit.

So you're running I'm on Starlink right now. I'm I was actually a little bit worried because we're getting a the remnants of a hurricane right now, and I was a bit worried that it would cut out. But

anyone get can get used to anything around

I don't know if you can see it. Yeah. And we have, ORM should

It's also happened at night. So you want to sleep. You want to recharge yourself, but you can't because you need to go to shelter.

we can work on the MacBooks, Nobody loves it.

When the rocket hits

and they took a lot of electricity.

your your power. And even I told Scott, I'm like, hey. These guys gotta record

lost around 75%

it's it's amazing to think, like, you've been just chipping away at it for 4 years, and it's it's such a awesome,

we got Andrew and Alex. Welcome, guys. Thanks so much for coming on. Thank you. Thank you for hosting us. Yeah. You're you're welcome.

on on syntax, which is, sort of like collaborations with open source projects.

really, really cool T shirt. You wanna go to syntax.fmforward/shop

easy in the TypeScript, in the way how we see it, how it we think it should be. Yeah.

Drizzle is like

our years of development and helping our projects to to work with databases.

And part of it is, like, we're trying to figure out, like like, how do we do cool stuff but also, like, support open source projects. So this Drizzle tee, shout out to Drizzle because they were, like, one of the first to sign on. They're like, yeah. We'll we'll do that with you. $10 of this shirt will go straight to the Drizzle project and continue funding the work of it. So you got that. We got syntax on the back. You think that's it? You're not. Look at this.

Awesome.

just to make databases

where we were working on,

or click the show notes or anything like that, and and snap up a t shirt before they're all gone. So,

Almost 4 years, I guess. Almost 4 years. Oh, wow. Three and a half years. Yeah. Yep. Oh, that's that's wild. And it it seems like probably in the last, what, like, year, year and a half, it's it's starting to really take off. Like, I've done a couple projects with it. It feels really good. You know? Like, the TypeScript inference is amazing. We will talk about that. But,

ORM for working with databases.

relatively new or hasn't heard of it before.

And, like, initially,

And how long have you been working on on, Drizzle?

and

We are launching this new thing

I can start. My name is Andrew,

So if we can't get to the

Yeah. Yeah. It it's been Node for me, like I said, coming from a a Mongo background where you don't even think about you just change the data, so you start working kinda fast and loose, and, this allows me to continue doing that while making it easy to to change later.

at certain point in time, we landed on the SQL databases

Drizzle Kits migrations

And Yeah. You you probably will never

yeah, as a source of truth for most applications.

in Expo.

space, like the local data storage space?

how to make Drizzle maybe a little bit more,

Yeah. It's not an SQL database. We are an SQL.

and, And, supported. It's like a,

Cloudflare d one.

So we decided to think differently, and we were like, okay. How how can we get there? And the the answer is the Google Chrome extension.

like, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, and we need to do the same thing. But writing as the data framework thing.

And we query Linux guys, So we were like, okay. We're not gonna And So first of all, we already support support PG lite.

So I guess this is for the first intention for that. But, like, the history of Drizzle kit with

our demo that's Drizzle dot studio is

has done more for me in learning how migrations work instead of obfuscating it completely.

We can just see what the requests they're doing. And we are just

And we are not have not landed yet, Yeah. You will have to change your schema. Queries would database tool for people to use as a stand alone application.

Node of 10 of a 150 rows,

but no.

like, stuff to do.

I I guess the intention was completely different.

I don't wanna say, like, compatible, but Yeah. I think that it kinda shines throughout Drizzle in general. It feels like it it keeps it all pretty simple for the user experience in terms of there there isn't a lot of, like, gotchas. You you do you follow the rules. The rules are are pretty basic, and you just use the ORM.

the,

let's talk about, a minute about, like, drizzle kit itself.

So you can now now browse

Yeah. Tell them I said they should. Yeah. Yeah. Also, you got a a syntax theme for, Drizzle Studio, so you can rock the syntax theme if you search for syntax fm. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I did this. Yeah. I remember that.

migration queries can be really hard features, limitations,

iterate

in one of your later blog posts about supporting PG lite, which is a WASM based

user stable dot, like, alters something. And it Wes, like,

So you don't need to think about writing the queries, and Keith will just generate it for you. So you need to okay. I need to create table. How do I write this query for creating table? Wes won't use it. So I personally don't want to use, like, data frameworks. But ORM,

I'm gonna knock that door again and again.

I I know, like, that was a big hang up for me was I I don't have a ton of experience in migrations. I came from a, like, a MongoDB heavy world. So when I started getting into doing more Postgres in my Wes, it's like, I need a tool that will handle migrations for for me. And I really do feel like

Yeah. Before you delete the table, you put it somewhere else so you can apply migration of deletion of the table. So it was

like, user stable Scott create, our electricity

fully natively embedded version of Drizzle Studio into their UI,

those migrations 1 by 1. This should be applied. And we thought it's great until we understood it's not because if you change your schema, Yeah. So,

to the API

You can use it without Node. Js or Bos or whatever.

the vendor native dashboard, it should influence the joint column

but it it makes you do disciplined decisions.

and then

of

land in their docs as a go to tool And you have to run through those conditions.

We not only have the native driver for Expo SQLite.

builder pattern

in browser Postgres database.

Andrew, like, Node, I don't know, like, within an hour, And, we Scott of, and whoever is gonna build on top of our APIs. So we have to think about all those stuff because Wes thought of this, this is gonna be the most efficient way to iterate and the best developer experience for people. Because we don't truly believe

they have, and then we represent the data.

So yeah. But Drizzle Studio potentially will support MongoDB.

And, we now support Vercel, Postgres, PlanetScale,

with the the API. Right? On Twitter, we will, How come you have to do that? How how come you have to use the method to

support MongoDB,

That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Alright. I wanna talk

Yeah. Migration cemetery. They just

some tools that we built to make the migration, but it was inside the ORM.

SQL JS driver.

you can you have the ability to click on update, which takes you to a separate page, and they just give you checkboxes to to update them. Like, the the experience on Drizzle Studio is a 1000 times better than they certainly should at least be sponsoring. I have a meeting with them tomorrow. Hopefully, they will. Good. Well Nice.

And and why why is that? It's just because it's too too different of an animal?

dev tool.

useful in the local

I can elaborate on that.

can I have, like, couple of meets and potentially

will catch you up later.

So you can use it as a since day 1. Yeah.

Was was that intentional to make it like, hey. This is a a thing you kinda have to know about, but we'll help you with it, or what was the strategy in creating the migrations tool?

this is a very inertia, I don't know. Off top of my head, I have to think.

but I'm not gonna give up.

been considering

Wes you're just on the Scott up of the

and sometimes tricky. Yeah. You can handle everything, but you need to think about how the things work. And sometimes you just need to fast

and don't need to think about the stuff. Doing push, doing generates,

the data on the actual device of yours. And we are going for a conversation with

you write for 2 a like, to 2 Npm, for example. This group will have Internet from 5 PM to 8 PM, and then you don't have

maybe there is a potential So we've built it, like, within several days.

Yeah. Because that that I guess that makes sense. You're just getting data and able to see the data.

the, heartbreaking.

Yeah. Not not this year, but next year. Wes.

how did we call it? Migration cemetery.

mark them in the database of the applied ones. So this Wes, a lot of bad things, bad queries, bad performance.

awful. Yeah. But he was struggling through it. Yeah. Yeah. And then we understood that there's already everything invented. You just need to run a scale files 1 by 1 and, like, a few degrees

Like, when we began doing outsourced, we've been using Mongo.

tool

back end of script,

That's really super interesting. Have you guys

freedom you have of the

he made some patches, and we've supported PG lite as soon as they announced it. Yeah.

And then after a couple Yarn of commercial development, we realized that

sending essentially those requests through your web page,

for them to sponsor our development of Chrome extension. Yeah. It's gonna be, yeah, maybe there. Cloudflare, come on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so it's so much better than what Cloudflare gives you. They give you, like, several databases. We'll talk all about that in just a sec, but, also,

runtime agnostic,

migration will be changed as well because it's right here in code. Mhmm. And when we started changing the schema and new person in the project start running it, we understood, okay, something is wrong. So we need to think about that. We had this idea of

We also support live queries.

And You should give this a a whirl. So okay. So

So

I I did notice that there was,

And Drizzle since, Drizzle JS, I mean,

So, yeah, essentially, Wes

and,

collaboration

behind is that when you make an API that way of the query builder, Xata,

So we started iterating on Drizzle Studio.

last May,

deal breaker with Drizzle is lack of Prisma Studio.

Then they introduced Drizzle Studio v 2, which is a major

different databases. But because Cloudflare is kinda weird in that you can't there's no, like, connection string to to Cloudflare. Right? It has to be inside of a worker.

drizzle studio,

It's awesome for us. And Hopefully, good for them. Yeah. That's for anybody

Our number Node,

that you can just hook up to for that type of stuff. Where where in Ukraine are are you located? There's there's 3 of you. Right?

Yes. And you guys figured out how to how to get around that? Peace.

last summer, mostly stay the same.

And we are errors.

Man. Wow. So you took one of the most annoying parts about using Cloudflare d one and made it awesome. So they launched a Chrome extension

So you are in charge of credentials, etcetera. So it's a a beautiful concept. Yeah.

trying to tell them that this is the perfect product for them to have natively.

It just asks for a callback to run queries on the database, and that's it.

The first one was Torso.

a a version for SQLite and Cloudflare d one for Max Hub.

Then we've signed with Neon. We've signed with Next Hub,

Drizzle Studio.

And all of those companies, they now have

command.

And then we started experimenting. So we've introduced the concept of embeddable Drizzle Studio, and we've signed with 5 companies.

And it's just a web component for you, so it's completely secure.

upgrade.

It is for everybody. It's completely Drizzle agnostic.

Decosix, we already have made a support for native Aesculites

for NEON and and others.

And it works Yeah. Mostly exactly the same, for everybody. I mean, like, we have So it's or intruding in anything else, we're gonna have everything that extra there. We we're gonna have it as a separate dialect. And this way, we can iterate faster Let's do it. So we did it. We spent the months. We spinned up the 1st version,

1 step,

really the the fact that Prisma is now building an SQL query into Prisma, which is nuts. You know?

And people Yarn like, okay.

And then people started using it. And we started using it ourselves, and we were like, okay. This is this can go somewhere.

Wes use those tools ourselves. They are great. Just use them. And they were like, no. No. No. We're not gonna migrate until we have, like,

Please just use Yeah. We don't wanna build, especially when we go through conversations

Yeah. I've spent half a year talking to Cloudflare about that, imply It is now, like, 1 step, We have LibaScale

for Torso. We have PostgreSQL you have to first pivot from the SQL likeness because you now have to list all the things prior, now we solely believe that we It is, like, composable. You can have or not have Wes SQL query runner,

using any database, not just if you're using Drizzle? And in Drizzle,

And, yeah, we build it completely, crystal agnostic.

of Prisma.

in terms of amount of sponsorships. Yeah. But,

it's really hard to navigate. And that's like, and these goggles can show you where you're swimming. So this is really crazy.

that helps

those are not gonna stand out much.

So this was a thing that maybe I can share in chat here so you can look at it. Yeah.

So we are also Oh. Trying to spread now and do other stuff we are capable of because we truly believe that we can.

and doing, like, 2 times a day trainings

It's pretty sick. I love the green.

regardless of,

your heart rate. You could it could show a lot of stuff for you right here. And if you open water,

So yeah. Thank you. Pick on pick 1 up. Yeah. Awesome. Cool. Well, thank you guys so much for coming on. Really appreciate all your work on Drizzle, all your work on all of this stuff and sharing,

Sick. Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

on their

How how do you do that? Right? Like, obviously, we're trying to sell some T shirts, but it's not gonna not gonna pay for 4 guys full time. So,

You can choose whatever you want to help, like hospitals. You can help

pick up a Drizzle shirt on, syntax.fmforward/shop.

Those Yeah. Yeah. So,

Yes. And, how you can use ORM slash query builder slash data framework.

if you translate it to salaries,

been wild. I mean,

it's awesome. So, shout out to what what y'all are doing. And I I really personally

And,

and Yeah. And that's it. And I remember how hard it was to navigate through the open water because all my life I was doing, like, swimming pool trainings.

we were making some profits

if you do Node,

fundraising

and committed, like, doing it full time.

You see, yeah, you see where to swim. But open water,

you can sponsor them directly, or you can

like,

We'll make sure those are available on the show notes.

I mean, I I believe we are in top 1 or top 0.1%

can just show you on the screen,

things that you could use while you're swimming. And this is new goggles I found that

And is this your full time job then? Right? Like Yes.

Like,

and all all of that stuff. You can read about that if you want.

And as Wes, if you wanna, help support the Drizzle project,

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And, I mean, it shows the the care that you guys put into the product shows. You know? Every time you release something or drop something or improve something,

where you're going like a GPS ESLint. So you can go and track what you're doing. So this is crazy, and I really wanted to try that. Wow. Because we were in Greece with Alex on the

in Ukraine.

is this it's sponsorships?

I guess it's really important to share those Tolinski. Right?

stuff, it can show you I guess this is what the intention. Nice.

your pace of swimming,

people who need to leave their houses, that need to rebuild their homes,

So

Yeah. Absolutely.

either different parts of Drizzle, make you write, as a job. They are building abstractions on top of Drizzle because it's the easiest.

Thank you. Thank you so much. For having us. Alright.

2 links to our biggest

we sort of transitioned Wes So we've launched the,

into the what we build and how we build, and we truly believe that we can,

venue we have. Also building some complementary products for people to to buy. And, Yeah. But we try to not brag. Yeah. We're trying to

what's been going on with you guys. I appreciate all your time.

And we are also working API. It has to have SQL like, Golang, and, Java projects.

the sponsorship's

really enjoy using Drizzle. So I know a lot of folks do as well. So, yeah, congrats on making such an awesome project. Yeah. Let's get into the part of the show where we talk about sick picks and shameless plugs. A sick pick is something you're enjoying right now, and a shameless plug is something you wanna shout out. Do you have a sick pick and shameless plug, Andrew and Alex? There we go. There's a

projects, outsource,

So we've,

I just recently found so, like, my background, I was I'm I'm

people

like Dying. Imploding. So I'm not I'm not a strong swimmer, though, so it's not very deep yet. Yeah.

right or left, you're going somewhere.

So yeah. So we are reinvesting. And just because we truly believe psychologically.

until

Yeah. That is crazy. It's like just like overlays on top of the goggles while you're swimming. There's a little projector on the side. Yeah. That's cool.

No? Okay. That's alright. That You can You don't have to. Wes can shameless plug something. So is there anything you guys would like to plug?

competitor to commander GS. It's a TypeScript CLI builder and stuff.

Welcome to Syntax. Today, we've got, 2 of the devs on from Drizzle. We're really excited about this both because big fan of Drizzle myself, Drizzle is a TypeScript ORM for,

look at these cool T shirts.

I got a question about filters, So

Wes.

syntax. Again, we've been using this tool for a long time, and it totally rules. Alright.