Hosting NextJS × Spicy Sidedishes × Modern Forms × Abandoning TypeScript

a better

a GraphQL

Or do you want something rid. Why what you need to think about

they're very different classes of tools, and I think really, I I think what the most important thing about this question, Guha, is that, like, these are not the same situation.

in a much larger platform than something like a Neon or

one time magic, rid

That is you're more locked into it, And understand how the things things work, but You don't have to go to a CSS conference to get to it.

even, like, emailing you

SQL functions,

do you want You probably will skew a little bit more data. You can have

And it's awesome. It even has JavaScript libraries to connect to that data. So, you know,

choice there. What do you think, Scott? and then when those things happen,

rid adapter and choose where you want to deploy it, And you can make those trade outs yourself relatively.

logins. It includes, serverless functions. It includes a a a GUI for your database, but also, like, a full platform for working with data.

has a much larger footprint and has been my daily driver for the past 17 years. Read. WES even released a course where it only work in Firefox because Chrome was behind. We're lucky to have 4 browsers that are so compliant now.

the limitations It's run as just like a Node. Js application, and there's a couple Yeah. Yeah. My VPN has a rid Has a a demon,

They don't say that they're specifically a database, but they're set of APIs you can use to sort of that is controlling

but locked up. So again, you might have a process like a node app running or you might have a process which is the JavaScript is running on in your browser because you visited a page.

What what these types of services specifically are like, we have different classes of tools here. Right? Supabase With the point about Firefox being, you know, ahead or being consistent for the past 17 years, Sure. Absolutely. But Mozilla and Firefox's development has changed substantially over that time, and I wouldn't necessarily say it's the same browser that once was. That said,

is figure out, versus a traditional database. And we sort of went through a bunch of the options the latest show and saving it into the database.

API directly from your database,

multiple different rendering engines.

that is

5, 6 years ago, Firefox was making major leaps and bounds in a lot of the new CSS stuff, a lot of the new JavaScript stuff.

1st to get relative color syntax. Yeah, relative a lot of times when I'm using all of the color mix, relative color,

felt like

engines?

is is the worst implementation of a layout system ever or something like that, especially Grid and Flexbox.

And how many other

really that hard.

Read. I you know, you're building iOS apps. You're targeting iOS. You're building you could have said, yes. That is fine. But in 2023,

I always have to fire up Safari.

Ready. What other UI things There probably are

rid. Again, I've been using Firefox daily for for a long, long time and I still prefer it. But yeah, they are. They are the one. But on the same, let's also say, like, How amazing is everything? You know, like, oh, yeah. People complain about CSS.

what other ways Are there to layout

like dragging their heels to implement these things or taking longer than we hope. And that's frustrating because I it's funny because in some situations I'm used to throwing the new rid. On there whenever I am creating an error or when I have, like, a custom error, sort of gotchas,

As soon as all the other browsers have it, there was like this two layer of you had to compile it and you had to go from TypeScript, and it was apparently too slow and too hard

we are all just like, well, and our JavaScript? Neon and others, they are hosted form for the syntax, Garp.

So

Like, when people have, like, mean things to say about CSS, it's because, hey. Something's not working in one browser as you'd ridged. Or there was the LOL, you know, how do you center things even though it was never

part of the new JavaScript temporal API, which is the new data API. It's massive. It'd probably be many years before we get it, but

of I've thought, and it may in turn Analyze some audio, an audio file.

maybe not even a year, I've been trying to get Jen Simmons on, on the podcast to talk about this. She she works for Safari or for Apple on the rid. Safari team and CSS working group is like Safari has been kicking ass with all of the new CSS features.

I, re Yeah. I I think I think some of it is the cascade. Some of it is the the rendering targets and things. But yeah. No. CSS is is, in my mind, Very logical to reason about and something that I've never really purse I don't wanna say I've never struggled with it, but it's it's never been something I've ever

Yeah.

we point to the one that doesn't have it. Rid. No matter how fast the stuff goes, there's always going to be 1 person that is lost to implement it. And unfortunately, that has been Firefox because

buy in to move your entire application So

Rid. Do they not overlap in their goals? Is React Native dead now? No. React Native is not dead. React Native is fine. It's React Native is a hard platform. Re

And hopefully, we'll have types

not I wanna say never, but it's not you it's not a huge Problem for me, and I just don't I don't care that much to replace it. That said, it would be cool to not have it, but it's not ruining my life.

not using web views. Now it's almost A very different approach from Tori and Electron, which are using web views. And what a web view is is it's a They're authoring it with, or Neon, any of this stuff. So I think that's a good idea. I think It's probably too much to get really deep into in the answer for this question, but we can definitely take our time to, classify those out into different categories in another episode.

more so than just a straight up all around web developer because React Native is very rid in how it does things. It breaks all the time. There's a lot of issues,

you kinda have to really like, some of the some of the dream with React Native is that you could take all your re React knowledge and build awesome native apps, and you can. But React Native itself is kind of a deep well of a topic, And you end up becoming a React Native developer,

not everybody is sold on just yet and not everybody necessarily needs.

but React Native is awesome. And, in fact, React Native does something that Tori and Electron aren't doing necessarily. So what React Native is doing is it's physically

So who knows? You know, maybe maybe some of those changes won't stick. And it's very expensive to have to

The build step has never

that are not running on a framework answer about this. And like the first 2 answers do not

Nice little play on

Browser without all of the browser stuff. It's just the rendering engine and the APIs from the browser

to NeXT because you're buying into all of the You're buying into routing, into layouts

very fleshed out React applications

Ready. I think that's completely valid. There's plenty of

and it's translating that React code into those real native code. It's it's not using web views at all. So re React Native, it's for mobile apps, iOS and Android, AWS

as comments that we can use inside of actual JavaScript, and and I'll be very happy

translating your components being able To have editors essentially create components and utilize created components,

They have a layout They're not square. They're like they're circular and you can click

to not run my code through a build step,

Tory's name here.

system that works for them. Maybe they don't need the whole server side thing because they have APIs Also, now they're going hard on server components, which

native UI elements for both Android and iOS, connecting directly to those APIs, It's my daily driver. I prefer its dev tools to Chrome's dev tools

So I don't think that importing Like And holy hell. Like, So Caitlyn, marketing. Did you call out an awful service? Have thrashing like that. Yeah. Totally.

That is that big of a deal to move to NeXT. It would be pretty big You got to know the JavaScript part and like, yeah, you're going to have to know the CSS, like

I think

rid. Just Vercel specific that will go and my suggestion with these types of things Next one from Zeeshan.

like 8 other runtime platforms, you know, like that that. Also, like The lines Run workers or jobs or tasks Even the Open Graph images on the new syntax website like that that could be called a job, right? So When we run the serverless function that creates the open graph image,

I was thinking that people could submit hot takes, and you guys could say if you agree or disagree with them. Spicy rid Side dish, if you will, like this. There you can put it in within our brand. Yeah.

Not a question, but a suggestion.

In my career, Firefox has been the browser with the most consistent rendering IE8.CSS,

etcetera.

These aren't meant to be targeted at you guys or the podcast, but the industry in general. Here's mine. Stop calling Firefox the new IE because you can't use has yet, They they're showing up in in, you know, fancy diamond stores and Driving a car through it and then just grabbing as much as they can and leaving, and then nobody catches them ever. It's it's amazing. It's like smash and grab heists.

especially if you're

were Next. Js answers, you know, and it's it's kind of hard to find

Hey. Here's what I think about this take.

between Vercel and Next Peace.

Rid. And I like I asked on Twitter about it and, like, half the responses

But then then then do you have to support Sent me the missing increment so I could have a whole It's not actually writing them in comments, but it's part the actual types will be authored

Too young to have maintained files named IE7.CSS, for me, I almost always if I'm, like, if I'm saying, oh, here's a new problem that I have, I'm throwing a new error. And And I would say almost always throw a new air because

which is a set of adjustable

Wondery does it, and it's a fantastic Wondery podcast. Yeah. So this is called the infamous international

that is a piece of work that needs to be done,

a description But like you said, you don't necessarily always want to have vendor lock in. Ready.

Power blocks are just like literally hunks of iron that have a little And like you can't.

I'm so happy with them. I found another set Rid.

And, taking the time to dive into what those are is going to be well worth your time, but I do think that could be an additional episode for us here, Wes. I think we could say Yeah. But, truly, let's separate all of these tools into different classes. We have answers. Yeah. Next question is no name. You guys are awesome. Thanks. Hey. Thank you.

these are like just like lower lower level things that are just always running ready. Listening for the fine detail

Send and resize an image, send a push notification, to resize video.

the handle in the different

20, 25 years old that I rid.

Yeah.

I think every single increment is £10, and then rid.

Could you explain rid. Because they they choose their own routing library.

for me and come back to it. So that's different than a worker the different layouts and like It's amazing. They have like like 20 different inputs, and that's it. This entire business probably worth 1,000,000,000 of dollars and rid. Garbage. So I talked to Sasha, who runs like State of JS,

a story that I already know quite a bit about because I'm into this kind of thing in general,

or,

That's a lot of stuff. So some examples of of daemons. I'm just looking up on my computer what's running.

So as nice as possible.

usually without any interaction.

And often what you'll do is you'll kick that off to another thread of scaling up on serverless are not necessarily there as they add a bunch of special sauce on top connection, pooling, things like that.

Processes,

using the new fuzzy finder on the new syntax website that's about to drop. Rid I thought it was episode 3 that I sick picked episode number 3. 3.

if you're the type of person who's

of of the work that I have done. Ready. A job or a task is a unit of work that needs to be completed.

f m on TikTok. Beautiful. TikToking.

My high end, like, diamond thieves, they are smashing and grabbing.

And it is done in a serverless function.

or

What the weights are. But rid. That are out there.

for whatever reason. And PowerBlock the company a reliable alternative to Vercel to host the Next. Js, But surely And you can adjust them different in different increments.

set of weights or adjustable or for dumbbells. You can get a set of power blocks And and what I mean by that is That is a Node. Js process that is running, they all of the special sauce are are kind of blurred. Like we're working on the Syntax project right now, we're hosting it on Vercel. I was having issues with trying to get a WASM package How are you doing today, Scott? No.

web app.

that application. Right.

And they're really cool because they people get really riled up about it.

And then you need to do a little bit of compute. You need to do a little bit of work.

Wow.

these are just like general computing terms, and often they mean agree. Next question from Guha. Hey, Wes and Scott. Love the podcast. Can you please talk about Svelte and turbo I think it is fine

of node. But At the end of the day, it kind of does the same thing. Another example is a cron job to fetch transcripts,

And don't forget to subscribe in your podcast player

To me, a job or task is

PowerBlocks

I've always said Damon, and I don't know. Like, Matt Damon, but I I straight up don't know. I've never heard anybody say it out loud. So Alright. I'm gonna I'm gonna hear it. Demons.

slider rid. In the It's really basic mechanism. It's so basic and they will last forever. They still sell parts for 40 year old ones.

It's great. I actually like it a lot more now. Yeah. Just just it's beautiful that there's just demons on your computer all the time.

something network request, a keyboard input, Part of that has to do with clicks.

demons. So the next one we have here is a ready. Worker. That sounds awful that that's a demon.

Yep.

a job or task is just like To me, that's just like an idea of like, Okay, we've got a we've got a job that goes off and and like Nexus had a lot of like thrashing in the different APIs. And this framework is becoming very popular. Let's have first class ready. Support for this type of thing.

Rid Oh. Oh, wow.

building a JavaScript Obviously, that's the business. And this is the business movie. Yeah. And they're making an awesome is the first one is an instance of an application, so it's configured and being run-in its environment. It often includes

PowerBlocks has been around for many, many years. In fact, I have a set that is probably

or it's called infamous There is no service as far as I know that bridges that gap.

that's one that's not here. But in Node. Js or in literally any programming language, 15 actually get new intros instead of just talking about it. Yeah. Yeah. I think well, people like them. I think that they're just a little played out by now. You know? Once Once you hear it for the 100th time, you're probably sick of it, which we get it. So Six hundredth time. Yeah. Appreciate you sending all of that feedback our way. We have some really cool stuff coming down the pipe. Rid Excited to share that all with you. And, likewise, since we were just in Toronto, at the Century office, it's a good time to mention that this podcast is presented by Century, as part of one of the serverless functions, and it wasn't like bundling it because it was at runtime.

Last 1 is daemon. Those these are background processes

So I highly recommend it. I also had a set of like the And they've always said, yeah, you can host Next. Js anywhere. But

And Every day there's somebody, my power blocks, I drop them or they roll off my bench and

a subprocess

in node world, we have a node process. When you type And like, I honestly, I don't know. Like, I don't know how you lay out

international,

.js and it starts running your application.

you hear these words thrown around a lot. Process worker, job task And daemon, what are they? So I'm going to give you the answer in context of

rid inside of a worker. And that worker will go off,

node myapp some big companies are hesitant to migrate the React app to next.

intrigued by that kind of world, Maybe. And that's the whole thing they're doing now. They're saying, DHH, and they're they're saying, we don't no more build steps, and that's cool. I mean, JavaScript, you can now we have ES modules, Kiena and Hondo are their names. So shout out to Kiena and Hondo.

because you're literally running 2 processes ready. I didn't really I didn't hear that turbo abandoned TypeScript as well. I'm assuming that's like turbo repo. Is that what they're talking about? No. Turbo is is the DDH thing, when DDH was like, oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They got rid of it. So Svelte, We talked about the Svelte one, but they specifically got rid of TypeScript

and PowerBlock the company, it was missing. I've like I always buy broken stuff, so I found a set that was missing one of the increments elsewhere.

Love heists style podcasts, stuff about that stuff. This one is really fantastic. It covers Yeah. Name. Yeah. Jop rid Oh, okay. I got the

Head on over to syntax.fm implements TypeScript

workers, for all browsers, then

increments.

A worker is a sub process that computes

part of a larger bit of compute. It often runs on a separate thread, so the main compute process is deployed to Vercel, and it all just works and it works really well, which is it's just great.

set again. And it's just an awesome company. Also, I'm part of like a Like a home gym Facebook group. And there's like there's another set of adjustable dumbbells called the Nuo Bells.

I always called them daemons. Are they actually called daemons? Yeah. Well, I think so.

I sold them because they're just rid Too annoying. The power blocks are the best. Sick. Yeah. I'm a huge fan, and I found Wes

In the handle itself, you can add 2, 2.5 pound weights, so you can basically get a 10, 12.5,

They're huge. They're way too big. You have to rid. If the dial both sides in, the locking mechanism gets stuck half the time. I had to oil it and

Check it on out. Shameless plugs syntax

the tolerances are so tight that as soon as it gets rid. Jostled around. The whole thing is broken in its landfill.

Bowflex ones.

do its work, and then come back when it's done doing its work and say, hey, rid. That thing you asked me to do, I did it. Here's here's the result that like there probably are a couple of jobs out there Where you just do HTML and CSS.

transcribes one of our episodes. We have a task When throwing an error Svelte is compiled anyone maybe new or didn't catch it all. So They are the rid. Only implementation

A subprocess is okay, well, I'm running node, but let me run another instance of node I

lot of Apple So there's always going to be that 1 browser Logitech has a daemon running.

Things like a database connection and whatnot.

Demons single sign on. I stats has a demon lower level things that are just always running in the background. Around. Very, very interesting.

Alright. Thanks, everyone, for tuning in. Catch you later.

the pink panther's story. And this is like a a and that The new keyword is is creating a new error,

in a window is that macOS apps. You're targeting macOS. So we're we're targeting multiple different rendering things. And, typically, like, when people have,

a web browser Yeah. I think, one of the the big things here is yeah. Like you said, like knowing I mean, super painless depending on, Jop Strongs.

Elektron

in running web code

But with Elektron, it it's a Chromium window.

So they're very different in that. Torey Yeah.

And so

where React Native is running a true native app. And that's the big difference.

When we talked in that episode, we said Electron ships a browser, and Tori uses the one that's on your machine.

and Sorry. Don't have x. That's okay. No need to apologize for that, Josh.

are using essentially just to allow editors to create new forms. I want to use a native form, something like Next. Js, that are part of the regular UI. Rid. I want editors to set up forms that control the logic. I understand this should perhaps

is still using types, but they are

when the entry moved into world into the React world for many, including myself. So Like right now, I think you can kind of look at it and say, okay, I have a web app.

So we have a Didn't

Ready. And then the turbo stuff, I didn't really pay attention.

rid is,

Not that you can't use TypeScript in Svelte, but Svelte itself the worker is not specifically different types of errors as well, because as you get more into to TypeScript, I'm just wondering if you have tried other hosting services. Thanks. So this is a great question. We talked about it a couple times on the podcast. We'll do a quick rundown of rid. So are there out there?

And in TypeScript. So when they are working on Svelte themselves, make it look awesome rid. Or make an extra feature

But rid Massive ecosystem of like what happens if you need maps? What happens if you want to do native NFC tag,

Whenever any of that DHH stuff comes up, I don't really get into it too much because

form, but it's still a Google. It's still a Google form. It's still a Google form. Even though we could code that as far. We definitely need to put that in the Like, yeah, that's one thing we should do is make the submissions go into the database so that we can just, like, click which ones we want, That's that's part of CSS, right? So if you're if you're concerned with how your component works, interact with it. So, Show me this is a show I want to do is. Yeah. What

formatting.

know I was so upset about forms. Yeah. Rid. Yeah.

to follow Over the past, And that could be sent into a worker, A web worker, it could be a subprocess. So but you get more nice features like real time and whatnot and Supabase Firebase. Those are Probably But this one specifically asking about And we can have a bit better Elektron. And if you want this thing to go mobile, you go works kick it out to

I think that is, like, dastardly. It's because, Like the reason why WordPress has it so nailed is because they control the back end. They control your data layer and they control your front end for this type of thing. And you're able to get the source maps and the bugs and all that stuff. So it was too frustrating.

So I I don't know. I'm not saying that there isn't anything out there because there very well could be something I don't know. But the big problem here is the connection to the CMS If you need a connection in the CMS, you need people to be able to easily build forms, yet you need to integrate them somehow into the JavaScript

experience for someone who's making the forms on the back end. You get conditional or mobile. But

Typeform they changed substantially. They've become more developer focused. They're shipping rid. Features left and right, and it's a wonderful thing. So if if if you, don't follow Jen Simmons or her work or Yeah. You know, are familiar with her, look her up. She's, incredible. Next one from ready. So, Mil, can you compare database as a service and provide your recommendation suggestions?

Yeah.

app if you're using something like Next. Js or React.

implementation. You can create custom inputs. You can have the spam fighting, which is absolutely something you need these days. You Can't just throw a form on a page and, rid. Even more complex.

I used Woofoo from SurveyMonkey.

somebody listening to this right now. Go make a better people that that do some errors.

like this, you just end up hard coding it into your site. It just does not work super well in a WordPress type of situation, On Windows, it's a,

ready. Really nice editor something.

And so, really, what ends up happening is anytime you need to have a form in a modern JavaScript

I didn't like it.

rid of where we're at today in web development with these things.

allowing editors To click and create their own forms, I think about making this I used to make this stuff in Drupal all the time, and you could train somebody to do that in no time.

And that, my friend, I think is a perfect encapsulation in essentially a mini browser.

ready. Nice GUI UIs? You

say, hey. You need to have a part of the website I feel like most of the times when I wanna use has, be, like, something I would want to keep. Like,

is is is probably one of the closest things where you're getting into Thing of being, like, explicit

let's say when I went to upgrade how many submissions we could have on our form, even though we were selected to pay monthly, for a full archive of all of our shows.

I it it's a hard problem to solve. I'd be interested if you're out there and you have the perfect solution for Yap here. Rid Let us know. I would love to see something like this because I think it's an interesting topic and definitely one of those pain points that you get when you move from, You know, a CMS solution to a custom app solution. Yeah. It's it's a tricky thing because, like, like, WordPress has us nailed. It's You pay once for, like, the plug in. Yeah. You're not paying through the nose. Like, we had an upgrade. We got a 100 people submit

I don't know if that works well in this form's context, rid But then you get into the whole aspect of handling the form.

I think, Is it, builder.io

If if I was tasked given that task today, a good

form SaaS

Forms and also we have to pay more money because we want more than 100 submits like like what a

rid Stuck at this point.

amazingly in Next. Js.

Next. Js on in a serverless infrastructure and not just a Node. Js process. Yeah. Yeah. And and you know what? I think there's one thing I really like about The SvelteKit style of adapter,

rid. Problem, you know, and

So that way,

as well. Yeah. You can choose, hey. I wanna deploy this as just a node app. Use the adapter node. Hey. Now it's a node app. Oh, I wanna use the Vercel one. So you can use the adapter. I think it's just adapter auto for Vercel, but I believe there is an adapter rid or even just a Cloudflare Workers one or whatever. You can use that Yeah. I think that's that's totally fine to do that type of thing. Yeah. I know. DHH gets people fired up. I I really liked his books, so rid. It's hard for me when I disagree so

where

but, yeah, I that I think that's a concern. I think that's a a concern with one of these, like platforms owning owning your platform.

there are hosts out there. Cloudflare Pages allows you to host Next. Js on it.

And just to play Devil's advocate as well is that

an awesome product on top of that to make it work. But Yeah, certainly like seeing that. And there's also the from DAX, the Open Next. Js project, which again will allow you to the goal of it is to be able to host So I think a lot of people who are hesitant dumbbells.

in SvelteKit and many other modern platforms now, you can essentially would have with a an output adapter. Yeah. Remix is, like

So

Like, I would love to see Next. Js roll that out, but I don't know that they will do that because

Because just like Node. Js, like if I want to host a Node. Js process,

You know, when you need to host your React site, which a lot of people do, while getting to use all of the secret sauce style things from Vercel, but just not with a Vercel based platform.

the adapter output,

A host that probably supports Node. Js out of the box instead of like just a straight up Linux box where I have to install Node and run it myself. So rid. This is just kind of like 1 step further in that direction. And I certainly don't blame Purcell for doing it as hard as they have because, yeah, that's why so many people reach for like a Google form is like is saying that your rid. Your framework has failed you or your your thing. You know? People that's why people use Google Forms or Typeform. You know? They're like, there's not something And these things are awesome. So if you want, you don't have a whole lot of space for

hey. You're gonna pick Vercel because it's the best option.

you know, the features that you need. Right? You can't deploy a static site and use server side code That's not during build time. Right? But as long as you're you're doing those things fine, you can pick and choose where you want to deploy this thing. And I like Yeah. I, edge.

when we come up with practical issues, Doubt it. Is it? You know what? You know, the what the big difference is, Wes, is that you're hitting with DAX, So you can go back and listen to that one for more information.

that both of those have acceptable, rid. From my own take. Yeah. Also, nothing is the new IE. IE is what it was, and and there was a point in time when IE was like the the rid to real native code, and it's being able to run

Hey, guys. A little feedback on the recent CSS survey episode.

they both use an on screen keyboard. Anytime somebody would press 1 of the He's in rapid succession to delete a word.

Century. Century does a lot of errors. They'd be good people to talk to about that. It's amazing, and and I don't I don't want this to ever turn into the century hour. Not that it It is, or is it any danger of that? But, like, there's so many times In your recent Tory verse Elektron podcast, I was surprised to not hear React Native mention.

I probably like 6 or 7 times I hit

And the answer is, I bet someone at Sentry has a good answer for that because they deal in source maps. They deal in errors. They deal in lots of events. They deal in all kinds of big problems.

rid portion of it. But in in building the whole syntax website, your application to deploying it.

graceful fallbacks.

That's great.

and I could say, like, if it has

and so pages instead. I had, for some reason, thought I needed some server side stuff, But I did look into

Okay. Next one. Also, you both expressed skepticism that so many people would have used such a new browser feature like subgrid And the HAZ selector, I think maybe you're forgetting

Hey. I am using has, and I just use progressive enhancement.

Thought it might be interesting to know a use case.

So it's a bit of styling mist, and that's just fine for my use case. You know what? So Josh was one of many people that sent us in saying,

1st on touch action.

Probably 30% of our visitors. Yeah. It's a major browser.

So I want I maybe I need to personally dive into the progressive enhancements for HAS to see, like, what

Next question from Josh Collinsworth.

for for the rest of jobs, tasks, and daemons or I also I just learned they're called daemons.

One of them is Kina and Hondo are their names. Rid. Kiena and Han I was I wanted to say quinoa, and I was like, that's not how you say quinoa.

I've shipped has to production just because I know that there are browsers that don't support that selector yet. Nothing will happen.

I've built a couple of word games in the browser.

They're both similar to Wordle,

is there a compile away solution that gives you a true fallback for it. Because if there is, then that's great. I would I would be going ham on has. It'd be has city over here for me. Rid. There's not. I think what he's saying here is like make it look decent his girlfriend

ready. Nice to use HAZ here, but it's not on all the browsers just yet, and it's not something I want to look A standard database type like MySQL, I'm as frustrated as you.

something with a class of playing, then had a bunch of meetings about content. We specifically asked you to submit the survey, re listener survey, which is really cool. So we went through all of that, what types of content you like, what kinds of content you don't like. We're gonna get new intros to the podcast. That seems to One thing people don't like, because

on the other one or even just the fallback is not good enough, especially because it's Firefox. Right. That's

of that can be colored in a different way, right? It's fine if that doesn't work on all the different browsers, especially because such a small

The parent that that progressive enhancement story isn't super great for me. No. Because rid. If you need subgrid and it's because you need something to go somewhere.

Yeah.

maybe, for example, the transcripts on the syntax website is like if I wanted to change the border color of the current transcript

Touch screen devices would zoom or drop a review if you like this show.

somebody coming in and doing a little bit more of the CSS. I don't think you have to be an absolute expert on that type of thing, so So I think you can specialize in it. I would still again listen to this podcast,

type of thing? And my answer ready.

2024 beyond, I feel like the landscape has changed. CSS has gotten so much

And like maybe all the columns aren't equal heights on this browser. Nah, that's an okay situation. But again, every single time I've wanted subgrid, ready. Maybe 6 months ago now already.

has that we just talked about. We've got all the different touchscreen stuff. So it is becoming a much bigger

it's fine if you don't want to get super into it.

but I'm not super all into the new properties and ways of doing things. Nothing against CSS.

I kinda think you have to have at least a a good enough skill set with, I'm gonna say, flexbox,

But

I think I think Zeeshan, as things are going

I could see

back end and a little bit more like interaction based.

part of the thing rather than just making things a specific color. Yeah. I this one's tough for me because I think of, or rid. Or a SQLite

And one more thing I'll add to that is like CSS is becoming

We've got crappy and if that's the case, then something like PlanetScale or Neon is probably ideal because You can use your traditional

grid, variables,

There's so much more So they moved to using JSDoc for that type of thing.

To that is usually no like.

I need it like I need it everywhere.

Yeah. And in that same regard, Josh, I do think, you need to know that we do Quite a bit of progressive enhancement. In fact, on the new syntax site, we're shipping the Oh, yeah. View transitions API, which we're progressively enhancing. And let me tell you, The progressive enhancement for that is to just not have an animation. It just works fine. And to me, that's a great progressive enhancement because you're not really missing out on that much essential anything. So we are definitely doing progressive enhancement. I just didn't feel like the has progressive enhancement story was that great, and same with subgrid. I don't I don't I don't. Maybe I'm missing something there, but subgrid to me feels like one that, you know, I I guess you could use it, but, like,

Ready. I'm much more interested in the JSTS side of things. Is it career suicide for a front end dev? I'm low key having an identity crisis.

building components.

you're going to need a little bit of JS. Rid. But on the flip side,

in CSS.

I don't know. I I think at various points in the front end world, This is one of those rid Problems that like, I remember hitting stuff like this moving over to custom app AppFlow, and the answer ends up just being code it yourself, but then you lose all of that rid Editor functionality that you you know you know and love with this. Yeah. Look look at us. Our potluck I I took the time and actually embedded rid The potluck

And then

that I've used, I'm just not interested in it enough to go deep into it.

rid Like, to be able to make layouts or invest heavily into a framework. It's true. Because, like, if you're if you're a a bootstrap or a a tailwind or something. If you're like a JavaScript, ready. You're

Am I not meant to be a front end dev?

and not really get too much into that JavaScript Sorry, Yap. I don't know.

And so

and you do a lot of interaction, So Man, rid Awesome. Yeah. Shameless plugs.comforward/courses.

of the better app layout mechanisms rid was a fantastic show. Classic, 2000 p h one reality TV show right there. Impressive. Never heard of this. Oh, yeah. Ready. Alright. Last question we have here from Westa's Pacificcity.

And then, like, there's flight control that we also talked about, which is kind of like a very similar concept of Getting you set up on an AWS type of platform.

the flow of hosting on there, and it all just seemed

on Netlify as well.

rid. Have you tried other hosting services

Next JS style stuff on I mean, sure, with floats and and collapsing, Incredible.

Docs for not just Next. Js, but Remix felt Astra Solid. So, you know, it's a platform for hosting,

I didn't need that much, so I just threw it on a a Cloudflare And in Apple, it's, You know, Safari web kit.

In fact, we did an episode on SST

why they've gone so hard into Next. Js and have invested so much money on in, like, kind of,

So if you're the type of person who is worried about the type of luck, and I know SST does a great job for that. They even have

quite a bit in terms of, like, SST

But API or their own.

route very recently and just ended up realizing but it's easier to accomplish things with grid and Flexbox than there ever was. So that, like, very specific domain specific knowledge of,

as well? So, Scott, have you gone down that route at all? Yeah.

essentially

So there are those very real questions. It is a concern. I think it's by design. It's Probably the reason

I don't wanna say taking over the React platform, but really becoming the React platform.

Yeah.

is touch action.

Like, good chunk of that is JavaScript. It's also CSS, and it's not like you're just gonna build the JavaScript part read and, like, leave the CSS part. So maybe maybe I'm gonna walk back my my thoughts here. I think you might be right. It's like like, it's just a tool. Like, you're you're building an app.

making style systems, all of that stuff. Yeah, that's probably somebody else. But yeah, yeah, you do need to know that layout stuff. And and even the last question is like

how it works.

done in the CSS as well. So,

The interaction So every time a new Next. Js version comes out, they have to sort of scramble and figure out, All right. How do we make this work the exact same way? Serverless functions, edge functions, all of that good stuff

there are others.

when you host the thing on Vercel, right? Like you can do middleware and that is deployed as an edge function.

Next. Js obviously React framework We said This is a really interesting question because I get the opposite question all the time. Can I just do CSS And the 2nd part of this question was,

ready. In Next. Js works super well

that

don't Perfectly translate to the experience that you get on Vercel. So, yeah, that's certainly something to think about, and it is a very real concern. I know Netlify has ready. Dedicated staff But the other another good chunk of it is something on a BlackBerry. Or how do you how do you lay out something in in Android? And is it better than what we have with CSS for complex layouts? using JSDoc for that type of thing.

You can create like API routes, and those will be deployed as serverless functions and all the good stuff I'll go to

Next. Js itself has like a build output API where they will

Can you count on them to be able to handle all the Next. Js specific requirements? So like, in that case, like React Native is Like, it depends on what you're doing, but Ready. So, yeah.

ready. New create react app, I'm thinking, does it mean vendor locking yourself in? I know Netlify is All right. So the question here is they're generally React Native developers.

to make the frameworks work perfectly.

and jobs or tasks, things that need to be done. Wow.

Yeah. Strongs.

Although I love modern tech stacks with headless CMSs and blazing for

by WordPress and its ecosystem of forms, plug ins like Gravity Forms, re WP forms and let the CMS editors create any type of form but allow you to use your own UI elements. Yeah.

and I was like, like, dude, like your Often applications will run demons separately because if you kill an application, more things than one simple thing. So A process

Alright. Next question is from,

you can think of that also connects The third party systems, complex conditional email notifications,

that will do like an iframe I it was like something I wouldn't want to just not work if I didn't have halves.

the listener survey.

no longer be organized by the CMS service where the website content is stored. Rid. Is there a dedicated forms service Scott, you just you just made me walk back my answer there. I think you're right. The the tools are tools. Right? You gotta you gotta learn them all. That's part of the job. Yeah. Part of the job. Unfortunately, now we got a lot of tools ready to learn. That's just how it goes. Right? Bunch of big tools over here. Yep. Tool Academy. That's what you're listening to. Do do you ever watch that show? That was a TV show, a reality TV show. Rid Tool Academy? Tool Academy. I believe it was on, like, VH 1 or something. And the the premise of it is that they would have, My name is Scott.

self hosted or as a SaaS that lets you create forms that you can reference in your CMS that You can handle the data processing and email notification stuff, React Native looks a lot more attractive. You know? I like React Native as a platform. I've built apps in it, and for the most part, it's rid Way nicer for

A service, a dedicated service. Right? There are plenty of these form services

She went and made the form and I was like, all right, let me jump in there and like, just tweak the The design and whatnot. And like we had we had 1 question, which was like, which of these episodes do you and do you not like? And it's a lot, right? So I wanted to make the UI as

confirmation flows, etcetera.

For many years, I've been spoiled

Currently, I hard code important forms into a website install WordPress on a subdomain I have not. In fact, I was going to do the SST

a good like opening

There's no control over literally anything. And it looks like garbage on mobile. You can't like even put a little bit of CSS in or like have there's no knobs or anything to even just turn rid. Then I guarantee they're going to they're going to roll out some like real time amazing feature

is a 1,000 times better than this, like, major corporation. You know? Golden. It's great. Anyways, I I've used services. I've used Formsbury. I don't like it.

type

rid. Experiences, like, they're the type of thing I would use if I didn't have access to a back end, whatsoever or any sort of serverless functions. Let's let's call out a awful service. We use

fast front ends running React or similar, I'm at a loss when it comes to Implementing forms.

similarly to TypeScript. But they get stripped out by the browser So that you don't need to have are fantastic.

You have different opinions on how to do things. Yeah. And if you don't like something like that, or you think that you it is easier for you.

So these are not the same situation. I should say that there's a proposal to do exactly that in JavaScript. It's called types as comments, which is, It's just one They run continually on your system, Alright, Wes. You wanna get into it? 1st question from doctor Pupkis. Hi, guys. Long time listener. 2nd time questioner. Since Next. Js is becoming the de facto

to the thing. So abandoning TypeScript.

JS doc so that they don't have to Run their code through a build step, but they're not abandoning types.

directly with some of the things he says, but it's okay. Yeah. We can all have different opinions.

You're probably right for your use case. You're probably right. You're probably a pretty smart guy. You probably know what you're doing.

distinction that we need to make Because so many people have ran with that, and I saw that all over our Twitter during the DHH stuff was Alex. Felt could abandon it. No. They did not. Felt could did not abandon types. They did not abandon TypeScript. They abandoned how they author their TypeScript.

And Is it okay to be a front end developer and not Be as interested in CSS. I know enough CSS to be dangerous, Welcome to Syntax. We've got a potluck for you today. This is where you submit the questions. We bring the Answers some really good questions today around Netlify and Next. Js and hosting and actually rid. Netlify does and there's lots of hosts out there where they're like, Okay, well, rid It's giving up. It's giving up. Yeah. I'm gonna throw this ugly ass form on here.

a builder compile step. That's kind of like our our North Star in JavaScript is. Will we one day That is

is very different than changing how you author types. And so I think that is a, like, a a a clear This feels like Now is the part of the show where we get into sick picks. We pick things that we think are sick. A lot of fun things here could be literally Anything. I'm gonna be sick picking a podcast today. Throw it up my alley. If you've ever listened to any type of podcast that's in, like, heists, I don't wanna say easier because there's more properties,

Turbo abandoning types And TypeScript entirely

Your code is still completely TypeScript

And, So tired people at Century that know way much about SoreSmack.

not have to run what

safe and, in on that key. Rid. So touch action manipulation solve that for me. Josh, you have unlocked touch action for me. That answers the question. Love it. Touch devices.

Tooling

and you can't just rid. CSS background black, and and it works. You gotta figure out what the equivalent is there. Yeah. And and I do wanna say one last add on here. Tore and Elektron are kind of write once deploy everywhere I I needed that, Wes. Thank you. I don't know any any, Dutch names.

Then React Native system is there. It's true. Like it's

React Native or one of the other there's whatever you have on Android.

it's all your form taking UI the difference is that when you run Next. Js elsewhere,

it's it's not that they're of a unit of work.

options out there. And Tory is starting to go us as a podcast syntax joined Century,

I can't I can't imagine anyone would look at Tori and React Native and be like, you know, Tori is what we want because React Native has this massive,

if you want this thing to go desktop, We got view transitions.

Taking over. All right. Next question from MyCodeErrorsalot.

Generally, when you talk to people that are React Native, know, like there's And what and about some big companies are hesitant to migrate their React app to next, given that has been rising popularity and being easier right? And a lot of these services, Supabase, PlanetScale, whatever you have on Ios, processes like when you go from So for example,

And

native layouts of ready. Mozilla's business model doesn't work that well anymore. There have been major cuts on that type of thing.

Sauce taking over.

They're not. Obviously, there's some web developers that do both, but it seems to be a specialization do this work The increments. I did the I had to design a whole sticker for my vintage set, so I understood expect that not to get abused by bots. And then you obviously have the front end, all the JavaScript with that type of thing. So,

So there I mean, there there's overlap in the fact that you're building desktop or maybe potentially mobile apps with them, whatever, read. Just in a different manner.

types of situations, right, but a build step does not ruin my life. The people act like a build step kicked their dog or something. A build rid Step did not kick my dog. I largely do not care. It's fine.

you go Tori or Maybe.

Where React Native is not that way at all. You have to be authoring for React Native. So much to the point where there's a React Native web To translate React Native apps to back to the web. Did you know that I I didn't even know this. Microsoft if you're the type of person who is afraid of that, there are options out there. Again, SST, I think, is probably the the best of those options,

rid. Maintains React Native Windows and React Native Mac OS.

where you could write

me to get into a mobile app development than anything else. But

But that's pretty much it. The approach they take is is very different.

like Scanning, you know, like as soon as you hit all of those. Oh, but we need something that's native ish. Native APIs.

go to syntax. Defam. There's a button that says submit a potluck question.

Send it our way. We love getting these, and, we do 1 a month. So my name is Wes Bos, developer from Canada.

lots of really good JavaScript questions today.

I was surprised at all the great questions we had. So if you have a question, So

You're listening to Syntax, the podcast with the tastiest web development

Here is Scott Talinski and Wes Bos.

So he had, like, he had a a 22

You know, 15 tools, it's a bunch of dudes who are tools, and they were, like, trying to reform them

back home saw the show that he was on and then contacted the show to be like, He's on the show with another girl, and I'm actually his girlfriend.

on the show. It was a bunch of tools. It

woman confrontation decided to automatically move it over to a yearly subscription Of course. When I did as a as a like, the there was no toggle for We just did it automatically. Type 1, a big old middle finger emoji for that.

And it was very funny.

It was definitely there there were tools. 1 guy oh, they they they were on the show with their girlfriends, and 1 guy was such a tool rid That, Alright. Next question from Tory not Tory.

from being tools.

to listen to that one on serverless databases, and we sort of like talked about

51 So both the server and the client,

either something traditional like a MySQL

Really change the game there in terms of making that stuff easier.

Or can you do an episode comparing the different options rid. Like Supabase, PlanetScale, Neon and others. I would love to hear your perspective on these. Also, thank you. Syntax is my favorite podcast. Yeah. We did a show episode 551. You can go to syntax. Fmfive

rid zones and and, you know, pulling things out of the document flow.

the and, ready to go for the the remainder of this year and onwards into next year. Yeah. It was it was kinda fun. So it's the first ready. Time that we had the whole like for Like you could also say like that's more of like a infrastructure are. That's good. And you just sit on your hands and see how this sort of pans out. There's been a lot of changes in rid. Last year or so.

services, and make it open source so that we can host it ourselves because this this is a problem, right? You're either paying through the nose to be able to use your form or you have to, like, code it yourself every single time and and use, like, a a library for it. And let me elaborate, sorry, to to interrupt rid you here. In addition to that,

and Firefox back in the day was was or even, you know, years ago It was great. I think the common denominator there is, as you mentioned, Jen sim Simmons. I mean, she worked at Mozilla for a long time and then went from Mozilla to work at Safari, and rid. It it seems like it's no surprise that now Yeah. That sent it is it is actually a direct line. A direct correlation.

many years. So, hey, before we move on, I do wanna say you you mentioned that, you know, rid. Safari is the new Firefox, where people can create a custom form. Hey. I don't. I might have to build that myself. I I honestly have no idea what I would tell them to do, or I would pick up WordPress. So I think you're rightfully

I think those things are all valid concerns, but they're not concerns really anymore. Rid. I've I've never I haven't done a float in years,

answer the question of what's the difference between new error and error. And finally, there is

is more of a convention than anything else, And people use it to be explicit about when they're creating an error versus when they're, like, passing on an error.

I was like, wait. Does it matter?

You know who deals in errors really well? Oh, yeah. We know a couple but, things like Hasura, which is you know, allows you to have an, You know, basically, a GraphQL

I don't know better otherwise. So if you're a a deep expert on throwing a new air And it's beyond what I've mentioned here. Please let us know because it seems to be

or not, does it matter at all? Throw new error, boom, or throw error, boom.

if if you're out there and you're an error expert and and you have any additions onto this, please, again, tweet us. We'll we'll, retweet you. We'll shout you out. My understanding of the situation

You can continue to throw that error instead of throwing a new error, and, like, that way, you'll maintain a consistent error type.

sometimes that's it. The other the other bit is is that, like, let's say you're catching an error and then you want to rid. Throw it further down the line.

but in practice,

Stack Overflow

yeah,

There's

rid. One little comment here. Error is functional, new error is a constructor. Both both work the same. Yeah. So there you have it. And that's that's largely what I got out of it. Functionally, it all kinds of come it all kinds of ends up being the same. I think we should do a show on

Do I use the new

That's a good question.

Do you know? in understanding how all of that stuff works, even like layouts You have it's a different way of doing layouts. They have Flexbox, but they usually kick off

based on what I researched not that I'm planning a diamond heist or anything, but I I think it's just Incredible. So check it out, the infamous international. It's really fun. I'm going to sick pick something that you probably sick pick, like, rid Or four four and a half years ago? Ago. Yeah. This is, PowerBlocks,

it's a convention

I'll say, like, throw new

So,

it's mostly just a

and it being a convention. There's a massive

JSON API error. So I did some research on this when I picked this question because specifically,

And

Feeling reenergized

perfect place to track all of your errors and exceptions.

And if you're having software bugs or anything, Century's got your back and, tracks performance, tracks all kinds of stuff. It's incredible. So check it out, Century. Io.

With me as always is mister Scott

Just hanging out. I, yeah. Just just, even a PlanetScale. Right? Those are rid. Serverless database is hosted somewhere where Supabase includes auth. It includes

rid. Met a lot of really awesome syntax listeners,

And we all Yeah, March, end of March. Yeah, we all went to the Sentry office last week And

Yeah. Feeling the vibe. We we had a little, team summit. I was calling it the Syntax Summit Yes. In Toronto. And so we had a meetup, Red. So, layout tools have to hit so many different rendering

Doing good, man.

I like Firefox.

Oh.

but most of them. So Firefox does feel like it is lagging behind, And that could be for a number of reasons.

this is Scott's take. This is not Syntax's take. Yeah. I think you're I I use Firefox now as my daily driver.

are last to come to Firefox. Not all of them, Supabase a lot of, just really cool people, and had a great time in Toronto feeling When she joined Safari,

Or just in general, and there's a lot of things that I do prefer about it. But I wouldn't necessarily say it's the most advanced or most consistent

or just in general. I also noticed that most of the APIs that I want

than Chrome or Safari these days, rid A web app that works on the web and then wrap it in a Tori or an Elektron wrapper and deploy it as a desktop app. Lots of desktop apps work that way,

I do notice Firefox has more issues it ultimately is doing the same thing at the end of the day. Right? It's throwing an error. So whether or not you're throwing a new error or you're just throwing an error in terms of, like, replicating that functionality,

performance wise oh, when I do gotta do the clear face and this like, those things have gone out the window, so now you learn it once, and you don't have to get as deep. Right?

fancy race car and everything else sucked. So, you know, everything's relative to its time being. Nothing will ever replace rid What we had with IE. Yeah. Here's here's my spicy side dish is Safari's the new Firefox.