Anxiety and Uncertainty with Dr. Courtney Tolinski

OCD is a type of anxiety.

I could be getting, like, a cut. You know, I will think, Emotional and making it more

it. Right. So you had both the genes Yeah. Yeah. So there's tons of great apps for things like that. And then, you know, another thing that we've talked about before here is, mindfulness.

Yeah. That's good question. I those are just, like, examples of symptoms.

You know, I hate to say it because everything seems to come from this, but it's from your childhood. Right? And how Yeah. It's great. What do you do, Wes? I,

But it it could be a range of symptoms for some people. It's like headaches, The symptoms or turns it on. And for a lot of people, like, the pandemic was a big one. Right? I know for me, it kinda, like, pushed me over the edge being, like, a young mom Having kids and being, like, isolated at home, you know, you can go from someone that's, like, functionally anxious, meaning, like, you can do your day to day, but, know, you have little worries and things like that to where the anxiety is really affecting you.

but also through, like, experiential.

I just post whatever whatever makes me happy. Right? And I find that a lot of people like, I wish I could post like you, but I I care too much about it. Is is that anxiety, or is that just, like, a a totally different thing? It can be.

I, like, told this wild story about going to, the it was

Gandy types of things, or are those, like, the 2 main ones? Mhmm.

can be anything, like environment. Right? So for a lot of people, they,

social anxiety, right, which a lot of us Struggle at 2. It's like a fear of, You know, or, like, trying to avoid things or just feeling, like, excessive dread about some things. You can think about that likely that it's going to happen. Right? So then you could look at it analytically and think about, okay.

You know, for example, I've been in a number of car accidents where I've been rear ended. And, Things that, you know, we start to think about in our thirties. Right? Like, am I on the right path? Am I making the right decisions?

having anxiety disorders or,

your parents interacted with you and, like, the types of Family dynamics that you had and what happened. And,

Zite day at the time, but now Versal. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I went to that conference. And after giving my talk, which went really well that night, I I had, like, a weird Thumb thing, where my thumb

you know, for Some people have panic disorder, which you could think about as, like, panic attacks that are frequently occurring.

Did that around like, cardio exercise. Right? Aerobic exercise, getting on the Peloton or doing, like, some really hard aerobic

But, you know, but anxiety, just like anything else, it's

anxiety can be both

embarrassing yourself or or saying something stupid in front of other people and then, that's a big one.

Become

like, labor and delivery experiences that have caused, Starz True but I I think everyone kind of struggles with change, even, like, micro changes, like, Sunday to Monday.

like, that is a a like, a a very real piece of trauma that's, like, affected my life from that point forward now. Right. Exactly. Yeah. But you didn't have that trauma

or, fully process the event that happened and then, like, File it away in a safe place so it's not, like, ruminating.

Or for young kids, you see, like, separation anxiety where they don't wanna, like,

anxiety for them. You know, so just like things that happen in life can lead to anxiety.

per se But I did before then. I did have a bit of health anxiety. You did. Yeah. Right. But it exacerbated

Internally and then, like, in terms of its clinical presentation.

So I had to, like I I, like, fainted in a cab, and I had, like, this really traumatic health experience. And, like, ever since then, You know, and the pandemic was A big one for sure. Yeah. I'm sure it was for a lot of people. Yeah. So okay. So but okay. What about, like, the longer term, like, health stuff because I I I I know I mentioned that, but we oh, they asked, like, 3 questions at once.

And I was always the in, like, in high school, I was always just the in university, just run around and, Like, I I talked to Caitlin about this. Like, I don't care what people think about me. Like, obviously, to a bit from a professional standpoint and whatnot. But, like, I I'm never like French fry chips. Oh, yeah. But it's it's dicey, man. Like, I'm I'm gonna take my fingers off one day. I see. I'm, like, punching, thinking about using a man.

holy cow, this cut is going to be the end of me. Like, it is Right. It has, like, completely ruined my ability to to be confident that my body will heal Anything at this point. And and so, People might be out there and they might say, oh, you know, I recognize some of these things in myself, but I don't necessarily recognize it being a problem.

our our baby was in the car with me, and that was a pretty significant trauma for me. And another time, you were pregnant. So In another time, like yeah. Yeah. So I've had some bad luck with that, you know, but those are, like, traumas that, you know, everyone can kind of relate to, but they're obviously more serious traumas that happen too.

Yeah. Right. But that's what happens. Usually, you have that predisposition, and then some sort of life event happens that, like,

grew super large and turned bright red. And the next morning, I had a big red line streak going up my arm. Well, it turns out, it was, like, Lymphangitis, which is a super scary Courtney and I lived in Michigan our whole lives,

I don't know if this plays into it at all, but, like, I I often talk to people about, like, People really care what others think of them.

So sometimes, like, a significant trauma can trigger anxiety.

Part genetic and part environment too. Right? So you have the genetic predisposition, but those genes are turned on based on, Like, what you, It's at least in North America. I feel like it's probably worldwide. Mhmm.

That's probably more of, like, a people pleasing tendency, which can be, like, part of an anxiety, logical. Is that is that kind of what you're saying? Yeah. That seems to be the big theme of today, but I think it's so helpful. Well, Olight is Definitely for programmers. Yeah. Yeah. Just getting it out onto paper Be apart from their parent because they're worried about, like, harm happening to them while they're away

experience in your day to day. Yeah. Yeah. So you're saying, like, I can't recall in the DSM, like, how many you need to have. But to be diagnosed clinically, you often need to have, like, a certain number. Like, It might be, like, 3 of the 5 that I mentioned or 3 of the 6.

when I do something, I never think, oh, what are they gonna think that I'm trying to do x, y, and z or Trying to post. And that's why my, like, Instagram is so off the handle of all this random stuff because

Yeah. That were there and then the environmental experience Double dose.

Passed down to you from, you know, genetically, It's like a, like, a Japanese

one time, reminding yourself that

from anonymous. I experienced some anxiety around feeling like I can't stay up to speed juggled in the air in my head, and then I can simply just drag and drop them into

No doubt in my mind, 0, is there's absolutely no way this is gonna happen.

how you're feeling.

that's a big thing. Right? Another thing I really like is having a mantra.

Right. Well and you also, like, had, you know, some childhood Yeah. Experiences

But, you know, it doesn't make the problem go away, but it can reframe it, especially if you're, you know, logical. Mhmm. Another question we have here is, Yeah. It does feel like if you're anxious health thing that you could die in, like, 48 hours less than that, you know, from.

Usually, trying to do is, control You know, there's always negatives in every decision.

for yourself

that you need to acknowledge.

noticing common themes of things that are,

I'm

Unpack those triggers, right, and help you figure out what And then, like, logically

too. Truth. Yeah. You know? So, and if you've stuck with that for a while and you're finding, like, this isn't working for me,

Your mantra. I well The v like water? Okay. I do have the v like water, which is a Bruce Lee thing,

Or how much sleep did I get last night? And it can connect to your wearables and all that stuff. And at the end of a month or even a couple weeks, Like, identifying trends with that app, it's like what it's made for, is to look at and compare trends in that regard. So you can see, oh, shoot. I felt really bad on 5 days. And on all 5 of those days, I didn't get any sleep the night before. Oh, shoot. I guess that is what's going on. You know? Right. Right. Okay. So we have another question here. It says, do you have any advice on how to deal with uncertainty? Or maybe if you have anxiety about publishing your Code. Maybe you should actually use a service like [email protected]

and you're not sure, you know, what's going to happen. And It's okay that you're feeling stressed out. It's okay that you're worried.

And it's spelled like a a like a teddy bear, b e a r a b l e, bearable app, and this is Android or iOS. And this app tracks

and feeling your feelings, like, just sitting there. And and you could even, like, set a timer If you don't wanna do it for long, right, that works really well. Just set a timer,

therefore, causing a lot of anxiety.

And that's where that mindfulness really comes into play because most of us are not connected to our bodies at all. We're just kind of, like, going about the day, right, and not paying attention to, like, how we're really feeling internally and how we're responding to things. And especially with anxiety, you're thinking more about your thoughts and you're not connecting to your feelings. Right? And that's the big thing is really thinking about How do I feel? And then backtracking to, like, well, what's making me feel this way?

you know, can I deal with it? What would I do to deal with it? Right? To help yourself feel prepared.

Yeah. So that's really important to do. And then, you know, talking to people close to you and

Jotting them down and just being observant, paying attention to your body.

carving your own path, and there's a lot that goes along with that. But I also have one that there it says, and there was nothing to fear and nothing to doubt Mhmm. On my on my ribs. And, that's from a Radiohead song, the the the pyramid song, and there's a little pyramid says there's nothing to fear, nothing to doubt, and just like reminders of the types of things that I give myself when I'm, You know, Yeah. Are there other ways that people can, like,

after the 10 minutes,

Well, which 1? I have 2 tattooed to my body.

affecting you. I definitely recommend that because Yeah. I would never have made the association between my trauma traumatic event and my health anxiety if it wasn't for you unpacking that with me. Because I would've just been like, oh, I'm just I'm just a tell anxious. I got I got health things. I'm a hypochondriac. You know? But it was you that were like, hey. You know, that traumatic health event you had might have been somewhat relevant here.

Currently experiencing a lot of life changes and uncertainty

put it down and just, like, really sit with it and think more logically about, k. If this happens realistically, And the people pleasing tends to come from, Right. So doing it every day really just helps to, like, mitigate any, like, residual stress, Right? Like, quick to snap Your day to day life. Right? So it's affecting you at work. It's affecting you socially. It's affecting you at home.

at several different points across your entire day.

not being able to deal with

So you can check-in as many times as you want to say, alright. All of a sudden, my depression symptoms are feeling worse or my anxiety's high, But, also, you know, have I had coffee today? Have I had my medication today? Have I have I drank water today? Have I done exercise? And

5, 10 minutes. Okay. I'm just gonna, like, eat in my feels. Right? Just Gonna feel my feelings, that's a really great podcast over Rick Hanson.

On your paper that you've written down. And logical thinkers, that that works well. That that one works well for me, especially because, like, I I can be in awe in my head about x, y, and z could happen. X, y, and z could happen. And then all of a sudden, if if you tell me, like, what's the likelihood of that actually happening? I'm like, I don't know. Like, 30%. You're like, is that worth worrying about 30%? Like, Right. Oh, you're right. No. It's it's not. I mean, that's, like, low likelihood.

You're having a hard time,

because it's about being flexible and and, like, You know, But let's get into,

If it does happen, Yeah. So But, yeah, SSRIs are really helpful. But you have to do the work first.

I can move on. Right? That's a nice way to do that too. But Acknowledging your feelings, being kind to yourself,

what things are,

You know, just jot them down. Right? And you'll notice patterns over time.

if you ask them. You know? So talking to people, Blaine, it was,

So that's a nice way to, like, your productivity has gone down. Right? That's more of a functional problem.

Right. Yeah. So having a mantra, something that's Personal to you like those are to you, I think is really helpful.

Right? And and, usually, when you rank these things that you worry about, they're, like, less than 50% and you're just tossing and turning and it's happening, you know, for weeks on end, serious, Obviously, working with a therapist.

Uncertainty's tough. Right? That's kinda one of the core cruxes of anxiety is

I know. Scott, you have 1 tattooed to your body, actually. I do. You wanna share it?

and it can track literally everything

really like tracking things, there's an app that I used when my health anxiety was at its worst called Bearable,

you know, that you're going through something Therapists are trained to help, Activity can be really helpful to, like, get that blood flow and decrease your anxiety in your body and your brain.

not when I am concerned about, you know, who knows what. My my anxiety's gone wild.

So that's really helpful.

You know, we all go through that, and and it's okay. Right? So having, like, compassion Right? So not anything is, like, set in stone most of the time. Right. There are very few decisions that you can't, like, shift course on. So you make your best decision, 0 to 100. How likely is this to happen? So 100, it's definitely gonna happen.

you know, the the running treadmill

I have a, a small app Recommendation, if if you're out there and you

weekly. Oh, yeah? But if if it's affecting you or, like, You can't sleep or you're thinking about it all day Sunday and and you have those things that I talked about, like, it's hard for you to concentrate,

had these, like,

like, seemingly much more challenging as you're doing them. Right? Like, it can, Like, affect the stuff that should be easy for you.

I I feel like most people have an understanding kind of what anxiety is, but, clinically, it's different

affecting you in your

every day.

having a hard time

Life like, typically,

right, that I just talked about for at least 6 months, so a while.

play to work. Right? And that's Not as fun. Even if you love your job like, I really love my job, but I get the Sunday scaries

So you mentioned, like, a little bit of, like, the the physical symptoms, you know, like the shoulder tightness and stuff. Is that something that everybody experiences the same way, or are there different, physical symptoms that people might experience?

being irritable.

I I think it depends. It always comes back to, like, how much is affecting you. So I think everyone kind of dreads Monday because it is. It's that shift from, like,

Or, like, short-tempered, high achievers.

Yeah. That's a good question.

You know, it it's hard for you to control it, so people will tell you to stop or you're trying to Stop yourself or distract yourself, and your brain just comes back to the worry. Right? And it ends up manifesting itself into things like Like, the anxious thought you had about it and your feeling

to different things that, like,

So that's what clinical anxiety looks like. And

And, like, what kind of, like, long term

you're, like, a teenager or experience in childhood. So you probably didn't have that experience.

stressed you out or having that, like, feeling of a pit in your stomach,

Clinical anxiety, like, where it could be diagnosed, is something that's like, jail or like It's it's light true crime. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. It says there's stuff about Tyra Banks and

But to the point where it's causing, like, We use, like, significant that's really helpful.

Right? And, usually, it's something that you dealt with When you were younger, you can kinda think back underlying traumas or, like, you know, kind of root cycles are for you. That's really helpful.

Yeah. Yes. That, like, The homework feeling I used to have like, we were talking about how, like, I would always just be like, I don't wanna go to school tomorrow because it's I have all this homework and all these tests coming up. And the order. And I sit down, I do the first thing first, second thing second. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Almost every single time, I'm feeling super anxious.

Now that I get to goof around on the computer all day and do fun stuff, I don't have that anymore. So, like, is Is that you don't. Yeah. That everybody has? Is that, like, anxiety in everybody,

you know, just having general stress or worry about something. So clinical anxiety is, like, excessive worry or apprehension. So Am I doing what's best for me? Right. And I think it it can be really helpful to understand what your values are. So, like, what you value in life and what's most important to you. You know, because everyone has a different answer to that question.

Feeling restless or, like, kind of on edge,

effects of stress, so, like, muscle tension. And a lot of people get it in, like, their shoulders or their neck. But just in general, you feel, like, really stiff and tight.

Yeah. And we don't need to get, like, too personal on here, but I know with your Sunday Scaries, it can make things, like, in the day to day

to be diagnosed with, like, a generalized right, whatever you decided. Because no decision is perfect. Right? We all know the grass isn't always greener.

throughout your day to day.

then that's probably more Clinical anxiety,

You're worrying about something pretty much you know, so that's my childhood experience. And so a lot of people that have people pleasing tendencies, it it Comes from You know, just talking to friends. When when you have kids, you know, you don't get really time to talk with friends. So last night, I went and grabbed a drink with some girlfriends, some other moms at the school, and that was really great. You know? So just having time to connect with your friends. Yeah. That that is researchers are starting to think that anxiety stems from the gut. Right? And I don't know if the jury's out in terms of that, but There is definitely a connection there.

feel really tight and stressed inside, how are you doing? Hi. I'm I'm well. Excited to be back, or a new skill?

impairment as our clinical language. But, like Yeah. You're noticing that it's, like, affecting you, and it's hard for you to function, when you're anxious. Right? It it's that you have some sort of feeling Is it your work, life balance? Right? Like, what is most important to you? And then you can think about,

Yeah. And is that, like we me and Scott talked about the Sunday scaries or the, like, And you know that

or is that just because you don't wanna do some things? Is is there a difference between the two things?

tinted windows. It had a a

Yeah. That's tough because I I think a lot of people do have just kind of could I handle it? And most of the time, the answer is yes. Right? Because the worst case scenario is probably not

smash in the window and grab and everything. Yeah. Pretty wild. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I I made it Nice and easy for them. I'm sure the the I the iPad it was like the iPad Touch. It was like the new iPad Touch, and it was just, like, sitting on my center console. Oh, yeah. And it was in Ann Arbor, Michigan, so it wasn't, like, a not a not city, but it's, you know, a pretty chill city. And then, yeah, somebody got that good. And then, the Worst part about it is dealing with all the glass. Right? You got me. Okay.

Just to be clear, I have the first one, not the second one, but there are

Okay. So if I if I can't if I can't pound, like, 8 shots or,

not in San that was many years ago. I think it's a bit more common these days, especially you see all those videos. San Francisco, people just

You couldn't see into the trunk. It wasn't an SUV. It had, like, one of the the top covers.

If I'm in going dab mode and

I've partied with him before. Yeah. Arrived. Yeah.

But when anxiety becomes a problem, it's, like I said, when it's, like, really affecting

Anxiety in their day to day, I think we all worry about stuff. Right? That's pretty normal.

the trunk of my car. My car had

That's, definitely same with what Quora did that,

I bought the PlayStation. It had been out for a little while. It was still kind of a hot ticket item, and I had it in

Okay. Cool.

That's a problem. Right? So it's to what degree is it affecting you in your day to day, and how much can you, like, turn it off versus, like,

If you're finding, like, you can't get sleep

You know, it just comes up every once in a while. Right? Because like I said, we all have things we worry about. Right? Life is just kind of inherently stressful.

it's midnight and I'm afraid that I didn't lock the doors, so I get out of bed to go check the doors are locked, that's fine. But then if it's midnight and I've checked the doors 5 times and it's Right. 1 in the morning, I've decided, oh, I gotta go check again, like, then that's a problem. That's a problem.

A a shots is where Scott arrives.

Yeah. They did. For you're prone to, like, leaving stuff in your car. Break up. They did break into my car. Yeah. This is my very good balance, So Yeah. Yeah. So I'm a little too reckless.

Yeah.

many other anxiety things that I do do. Well, that's my dad. He has that, like, Checking. So he'll, like I know a lot of people do this. They worry about, did I shut the garage door? And they've, like, driven around the neighborhood, and they have to drive back To see, did I shut the garage door? And that's like a daily thing for him. I think one of the the first time that I knew Courtney had some kind of anxiety was When I had bought a a PlayStation Have some sort of, like, trauma that happens to them in life.

you know, therefore, you don't wanna go to a party. Right? That's That's a problem.

someone's gonna steal that PlayStation. Like, I was like, no one knows what they did, though. Like, nobody we just drove this place. Nobody has any clue of Yeah. But someone's stolen your iPad before.

and

But if it's, like, affecting your ability to, like, go about your day, then that's when you might wanna seek some more support.

What did you say? 8 shots? I Oh, like I'm not these aren't things that I'm actually doing. Yeah.

Same with work. If you're working and you're, like, thinking about whatever it is that's stressing you out and because of that, a really powerful thing to be able to do. Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense stress or anxiety or just being out in nature I love therapy.

You know, do some illicit drugs to solve my anxiety. Like, what should I be doing to solve my anxiety?

because But having, like, a daily practice of it and having an app to keep you accountable, I think, is awesome.

and it works at Apple, Linux,

and calm.com

But you're going through the actual anxiety disorder, which is what I think most Talk more about psychology.

Yeah.

Good for me.

But there's there's lots of different types of treatments depending on, like, what type of anxiety you're dealing with. Right? So the general one that's recommended is, like, cognitive behavior therapy where you're you're irritable. You Yeah. Right. And and that's, like, the big thing with, like, the difference between general anxiety and clinical anxieties.

That's the hard part because I think a lot of people want, like, a,

paper pencil

Would going for a walk be effective As effective, or do you need to be, like, really moving?

Yeah. I mean, I I think that aerobic exercise is probably the most helpful when you're really But, yeah, definitely going for a walk if you're having, like, mild and knows, like, what questions to ask and how to help you, like, Figure out what those, I Think it's great,

Here here's a good analogy. You've just written a useEffect, and there's no dependency array. That thing's just gonna be running, and there's no there's no context there. And then what you gotta do is you gotta tell it what its dependencies are, and then it knows when to run with what it's associated with. See? There you go. Yeah.

and you're doing, like, bilateral of people pleasers, and we kind of, like, podcast about just anxiety, it's cyclical. Right? And so, like, parsing that apart or, like, not wanting to text someone back Because you're worried about, like, how you're gonna phrase something. Right? Or that you'll say something embarrassing and, Concentrating on things or, like, focusing,

I know there's a lot of great, like, apps and things like that where you can do therapy with text. And I I know it's been helpful for people, But I recommend psychologytoday.com.

Other things, like keeping a journal.

Ryder medication, antianxiety you know, like, increased heartbeat.

Yeah. So EMDR is great.

your feelings. Right? So thoughts, behaviors, feelings. And we talk about it as, like, a triangle that, like, conflate those based on your values.

journaling app as well,

Let's see here. Psychology Psychology b a. It would be psychology on the new the app that I was looking at was How We Feel Oh. Is the app. It's a really beautifully designed app too. How We Feel. Okay.

and it it's really helpful, especially for anxiety,

your thought, traumatic event,

Right? Is psychology dotca a thing?

Yeah. So that's That's something I specialize in, so trauma therapy is, like, definitely

the event. So you're experiencing it in your mind, and then you're, like,

is really effective. And other things too are, like,

Your what behaviors you're exhibiting and then,

Yeah. Right? Yeah. And, yeah, if you're doing the work, Like, you're doing therapy

I love that one for trauma. Just to ask a question about, like, physiologically,

And your brain does not know where to file that event. Right? So it's kind of like this uncertain thing that's Happened to you and your brain doesn't know what to do with it, so it keeps resurfacing in your unconscious my sister, it's really interesting. You're doing, like, a tapping motion, a specialization among psychologists. But how my therapist Right? So if it's, like, Your 1st 10 minutes in the morning, you're meditating or you're doing, like, a headspace,

eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. I knew I would get that wrong. So that's what EMDR is. And, Processing. I knew I would get that wrong. So that's what EMDR is. And,

have been found to be, like, helpful supplements that you could take.

I'll I'll I'll share it later later on. Okay. See if I have the link here. It's called

even yoga,

and you're still feeling stressed out, then, you know, looking at SSRIs,

So if you're looking for therapy,

mental health walk, in,

helps your brain to, like, And then,

and figuring out how to shift any negative thoughts or unrealistic thoughts you're having into more, like, positive or realistic thoughts. Right? So that's what you would do in CBT.

is it essentially, like,

So I love that. Headspace.com and then is this other opportunity Right? To to really, like, sit down and feel your thoughts. And most of us don't wanna do that. Right. It's not fun. It's uncomfortable. We don't we'd rather just, like, push them aside and not deal with it. But it's so important to, like, Address your feelings because that's what's coming up

Right. But with anxiety, you're trying to, like, always think about, like, what could happen Yeah.

But journaling is great. It's a really great way to, like,

omega threes and magnesium And, actually, the breathing app is a really great app too that I use. It's free, and it helps you do that 478 breathing. And you can set a time limit, So you don't have to worry about it. And it will tell you when it's done.

with a u. No. Psychology today.comforward/c

Probably.

and everyone's, like, going on my stupid mental health walk.

you haven't processed it. Right? And so the EMDR

Windows Obsidian is a good app for that. It does, like, the automatic daily notes and stuff. I know iOS is launching a new,

it's kind of, like, It can

Psychology

Because, obviously, we can't predict the future.

work.

Right. So doing, like, meditation, that,

Okay. So I guess we have a bunch of questions here that came in from our form here. People had some questions for us and had some questions for Doctor, we can get into some of your stuff too if you had other other notes that we didn't hit court because I know you have stuff. Yeah. We had a question that came in that was, How can we recognize our triggers for anxiety, and what are healthy healthy coping mechanisms? I know we just talked about some of those, but, you know, How can we recognize these triggers? detriments, I guess, come from those physical symptoms? very, very educated in this stuff. So if there's anything anybody has and, you know, they're wondering about, Always feel free to hit us with that.

oh, I did not paste the link. I'll find it. Okay. Yeah. There's a lot of great, apps that you can use or just, like, a general So I I think one of the biggest things is To just, like, acknowledge they can probably give you those triggers really quickly All of that. Right. Right. Well and and how do you both deal with this because I know you talk about that a lot.

looking at You know, having compassion for yourself coming back to that, like, it's okay that I don't know everything.

because a lot of times, you don't know, like, what those triggers are. And we talked about, like, Childhood trauma and things like that. That's a lot to, like, Crime? But meditation just helps you focus on the present And to not get, like, caught up in the future thinking, the, like, what ifs. Mhmm.

3, 6 months, And then I think the other piece of it is just being kind to yourself. You know, letting yourself

I think they have 1 in Canada too. .Com might be the American one. Usually.ca.

medication unpack on your own. Right? So being able to talk to someone who's trained, One that I I was thinking about for this is the Being Well podcast. It's by, Rick Hanson. He's a neuropsychologist,

For something like a trauma, like, Maybe like what Scott had or what I had with the car accidents.

and then, like, plan for those various scenarios so you feel prepared.

is that, like

The Ozempic's not for anxiety, though. Oh, you're you're just saying everybody wants the No. The pill like like chips,

Like, the pill solution. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody wants a quick fix, and and, like, Some of this stuff, like, doing the work is hard hard work. Yeah. Fortunately.

think through your thoughts, what happened in the day. And now there's so many, like, really great journals. I know you just found one. What's that called? Be well?

a. Psychology

Wes, are you familiar with the Ozempic thing right now? Is that The, where everyone's taken to lose weight? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

shifting

stimulation on your body.

You can't just take the SSRI and expect that the anxiety's gone. Yeah. And and disclaimer, only, you know, talk with your doctor before taking magnesium. I know. We're we're talking to the doctor now. But, I mean, it's a mineral or whatever. But Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Don't just I just legal liability.

you know, that you're when you have a trauma,

things that you can do. Right? Obviously, therapy, feeling like the physical

I love EMDR. It's eye movement

can I just take the Ozempic, solution?

I know a lot of us had journals when we were younger.

cycling

Like, I had an interview that I felt went really well. They were offering good money, and I took the job, and then it wasn't the job that I really actually wanted at the end of the day. And you know what I did? I I, changed my job, And I applied for new jobs, and I got a new job Is there anything that you would like to share or plug?

Sure. I would plug my learning evaluation center. So I'm the director

So it's just it's good for a laugh. Yeah. The celebrity book club. I love I love stuff like that where

Feel like we're very good at critiquing and, like, being,

within 6 months.

And, they give you, like,

And, be careful if you're putting it in the dishwasher.

The gist, but they, like, go into some of the details that the celebrities are talking about. And it's just really funny, And like an appointment, we've Talked about this before, like, you would exercise or whatever. You make that time a nonnegotiable.

analyzing, you know, these

common, breathing.

Japanese, like, So great. And it's a Japanese, like, pool is an unsung, but, like,

what I've been doing is, like, the unsung experience where I'm taking, like, I'm I'm I'm getting that bath water up to, like, a 1000000000 degrees, and I'm cooking in that thing like a stew. And that, to me, is, like, one of the things that I really like to do

for his back. And

Sick. Well, thank you so much for Coming on the show, Court, I I thought this was really awesome. And, And and you see you see kids from all over surrounding areas. Right? It's not just, like, Denver kids?

talking about it, making a decision, a young adult.

And then you can, you know, talk to your friends about it, talk to your therapist,

and before you know it, it's 8:30, 9 o'clock, and you have an hour left.

And it's really funny because you don't have to, like, read the book like they did the Prince Harry one. You know, they do all the big ones.

Alright.

That now I don't have to watch this movie. They're they're talking about it, and they're probably more interesting than the movie is anyways even especially if it's a bad movie or something like that. So, Like, just getting

but also helps you in those moments where you're really stressed out or anxious and and you need that Support. Not to give people homework, but a breathing app is a very good, Yeah. So just goofy stuff like I like light hearted stuff because I'm dealing with, like, intense feelings all day. Mhmm. Like, in my downtime, I want the light stuff. Yeah. Right? I get that.

and then here are the things that we need out of life. And then we just went line by line and filled it in And scored it up. And at the end of it, it, like,

Please

no. I'm not. Yeah. Okay. Being someone with anxiety, like, I don't wanna listen to food crimes. I'm definitely, like, thinking that's gonna happen in real life. The celebrity book club Oh. Is one that I like. It's like these 2 girls. I wanna say they're like Gen Zers. I don't know. They they give off, like, a young vibe. But they,

Just have a bit of time to poke around at whatever it is that you're interested in doing that night, going shopping. You know?

I always like that. There is a true crime one that I like. You introduced me to it. It's like the reality

you know, you can always shift course.

will probably have some flaws to it, right, or something that's, like, scarier, unpredictable.

You know, general happiness and, like, well-being, you're finding yourself, like, avoiding parties You know, feeling that shame. So, like, performance based or just being in, like, social settings. So there's lots of different ways that anxiety can, like, manifest itself both, like, feeling really tired or, like, overly fatigued,

to to view it. So

you know, the end part of the show?

Oh, wow. That's an interesting question. We talk about this a lot. I'm really good at, like so I'm, like, a first child, the oldest child, and I'm good at, like, Critiquing.

more in line with my values. Right? So it's kind of like that pro con list, But it allows you to think about, like, what's most important to me.

is what it's called. So it's, like, true crime, but it's, like, reality stars.

comfortable in knowing that you made the best decision with The information that you had

Last 1 here. If you had to start your career over today, and we didn't know where we're going to move to, so we made a giant,

So it's like it's like a a rectangle, and it You put the vegetable

they're taking apart, like, a movie

Anxiety, learning disabilities, and autism. So if you're interested in that, check out our website,

Ours does not have a mandolin, but it has 4 different, People struggle with when we're talking about anxiety.

you know, you you wanna do it every day so that,

It's a fun one. Yeah. That would be great. If you made your own, then you'd probably be more likely to use it. Yeah. Totally. And there's prob there's a lot of good app ideas in this show, whether it's like trackers or breeders or any of that stuff. Trackers. My dad does like stretches

So that's always fun to have some downtime.

What's a podcast that you really like?

for a full archive of all of our shows, Yeah. And and it's it's a problem because that's not what for and it's also causing a bunch of other issues, but everybody's just looking for that. Let me let me take the pill and, let me just deal with it, you know? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. No. As long as I don't have, like, a cartoon villain, like, scraping off some carrots into it, I'm I'm okay. There's not, like, a fire underneath it.

Mhmm. Modes. I don't trust It's it's easy to swap in and out. It's really nice, and it's small. We have a mandolin. Every now and then, we make, Because you're so wound up at night,

Yeah. I mean, we definitely Scott and I have our shows that we like to watch.

I forgot how, like, refreshing that is to, like, go hang out with people and talk tech. Right? Yeah. Just to connect.

So I'm going to ask you,

Oh, criminality to something that is more manageable. So that's a life changing therapy.

No. We just use Google. Yeah. Yeah. Yelp's kinda I I went on it the other day, and it's just like a Ghost Town. I was wondering, maybe maybe they They have some though. It's a hard app to use. I haven't haven't used it in many, many years. I think They make you download it, don't they? You're like, you can't look at the reviews unless you download it, and I don't want it. I don't want it. I get all those alerts on my Google Watch.

and then make an informed decision that's based on, like, who you are to your true core and then what it is that you want. Right. And then the next step seeing what they notice. Because a lot of times, we're, like, in our heads, you know, and it's hard to, like, See what's really happening. But the people closest to you, if they're good friends and they're honest or, like, your partner or whatever,

spreadsheet essentially of, like, Here are the different 6 different locations we're considering,

We do every other night. So the other night, it's like 5:30 or whatever after dinner, 6 o'clock.

And then we will put them to bed and manageable things that you can sort of chew on,

What what don't you do It's the classic psychologist trick of turning the question around someone else.

So that's really nice. But what you wanna do is make it like a daily practice. Like anything, like exercising, Because it's good. I know. It it is. It's so true. And we know all these things. Right? It's I'm probably not sharing anything new, but these things The unexpected. Right? Even though we know that you can't control anything in life other than yourself, it's really hard when you have anxiety because that's all you're Yeah. So I again, I think journaling or, like, I like reading.

at that time you can always, you know, change your path back to whatever it is that you, Those moments in your childhood, but, usually, it doesn't come out full force until

they review because they're often ridiculous.

biographies, your thoughts, right, and how,

extremely

Ace.

what other alternatives you could do in life And kind of, Wes, I heard you are very Anti, like,

classes I've taught before build them because they'd like, they've had anxiety,

Head on over to syntax.fm

What is it? Our our submission form is for the potluck form. You can always use that form to submit,

One thing we've started recently is me and my wife are splitting bedtimes

Yeah. Now what we're doing is

You know, so if I'm doing this, you are, you know, taking the first of, like, your main goal. So, like, what's an example of a language you might wanna learn of, a learning center here in Denver, Colorado, and we do assessments for ADHD, You're functioning. Right? So if Yeah.

it it made sense to move where we moved and to do what we did based on our current life situation. And and I think it was, like, really helpful Well, because it for me personally, Literally everything,

the vibes of any of these things, Does that make sense? And it makes sense for, JavaScript developers.

you know, not filing their taxes, you know, I was definitely in a family Another thing is to, like, make a list of, like, all the things that could happen. Right. So get it out of your mind and just jot down all the things that you fear could happen in the future.

Really sit there and think about it

I came up with 3 quick questions here that we could do instead of these. So one of them is, what do you like to do to relax?

practice, But you never fully feel prepared because you don't know, like, what's going to happen. So it ends up being, like, this hamster wheel. So staying present is really helpful because it reminds you to, like, be grounded and to not get caught up in the future thinking.

when you are feeling stressed Mhmm. The skills that you're Practicing will actually take over. Right? You can't expect yourself to, like, know how to deal with your stress if you haven't, like, prepared for it.

for getting a little bit more free time to go to the gym, to

You could you could start your you could get your Yelper Yelper start. You could start yelping. I could start Are you off things? Does anyone use Yelp anymore? Do you guys use Yelp over there?

what would you do?

and they're like, you know what? I'm gonna build my own breathing app. And Oh, yeah. It's timers. It's start and stop, async away promises, all all that good stuff. So

I think it's always key. Yeah. I think, you know, to put some even, like, practical context to something that we've done too, like, when we chose to move out of Michigan, around what the future will hold, just thinking of all these different options in the air, they can feel Yeah. I've been liking the the onsen.

small utensils in the kitchen? Single use. Oh, single use. Single use. Utensils. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But I have to stick pick this one. It's a vegetable chopper.

and, like, a couple different chopping You have to have in your brain, Then it becomes a lot easier and a lot more of a clearer path forward. Right. Right. And I think that's a lot of what anxiety is, is taking something that Feels, like, so overwhelming and, like, out of your control and, like, putting it into your control, right, by, like, coming up with a plan, putting some structure around it, and then, like, Taking the actionable steps. So dedicating time to actually

you know, some sort of, like, deep breathing. Right? We love the 478

because for the last, what, 6, 7 years, we've been putting all the kids together to like, we we would 1 would take 2 kids, the other 1 will take 1 kid, build stuff, work,

strategy So speaking of critiquing,

Let's get into the part of the show where we talk about sick picks. Sick picks are things that we think are sick or cool or anything. Could be literally anything. Courtney, did you bring a sick pick for us today?

I don't yeah. Yeah. Or Nick Lachey, too hot to handle too hot to cancel.

questions anonymously. So if you're you know, you don't wanna ask your question on Twitter or something like that, you know, use it on the anonymous form, and you can always ask our question. We can Collect them for the next time we have Courtney on. Thanks for coming on the show, Court. Alright. Thank you. Ace.

What do you listen to for fun, though? Oh, what I you know what I really like? I'm like yeah. This sounds, I always feel like I'm gonna get judged for this, but I'm definitely into, like

So whatever you choose

Part of it is very, very sharp. And, Wes, I was just reaching for stuff in the dishwasher the other day, And my little thumby my little thumby went right into that grid. And, boy, I've been dealing with it now for days. It is It is sharp. So, yeah, be careful around it. It says warning, and it means that because it it hurts. And and does does yours have all the attachments, like, does it is it a mandolin as well or just a a grid chopper? Like a magic bullet. So we get into some of these. Like, can I just,

Like physical space, and we were able to see them very directly as for what they actually were. And like also, I've changed jobs based on vibes before.

Is it the type of work you're doing? So you you often see those 2, like, co occurring.

And you might be concerned about that because people get all Concerned about, like, oh, what's this gonna look like on my resume, whatever, we'll prioritize, you know, prioritize your happiness over what's it gonna look like on your resume sometimes,

it's important.

to, decrease my anxiety. So that's a, you know, possible example out there. Just cook yourself? Yeah. Cook yourself a little bit. Yeah. Yeah.

need to do. Right? But, again, just getting it out of your head onto paper,

celebrity so you can, like, really see it for what it is.

coping or relaxation

yeah, let us know if you have any other topics you'd love to hear from Kourtney on. She As a doctor of psychology, she she is, you know,

All those businesses are garbage. Garbage.

2 big situations or decisions and how they fit with that.

refreshing. Like, I I even said that last time I went to a conference, it had been a while since I've been to a conference and just just chit chatting with people about tech. And I came back to me like, man, but, like

We usually have these supper club questions that are like, what kind of computer and shell do you use? But I don't think you know what a shell is.

You know, there's a hot new restaurant down the street. Like, I don't wanna know about that. That. Yeah. I I that's why we don't do it. I hate that when they Dude, that that's how you can tell they're struggling for money when they, like, aggressively People feel like they are getting left behind. It feels like this is my job,

work on stuff around the house, to

ethereal Okay. Okay. So we have a a couple of, questions about making big choices, and one of them is about career and one of them is about life. But I think, you know, some some of the stuff can be hit on the the same Same answer or the same context here. So one of them says, I feel anxious about making big decisions because I worry that I'm missing out on a better life or more happiness for myself. Do you have any advice on how to navigate big decisions? Redoing connections in your brain, is that what it's doing, or, like, how does that how does that make changes?

I work out daily.

No. I I think, you know, if you're struggling with anxiety, having, like, a daily exacerbates Feelings and symptoms, like, profile. Like, I'm definitely a people pleaser, and I also have anxiety, you know, but I'm a perfectionist.

and to, like, again, give yourself that compassion But you have to, like, be And there's a lot of different types of anxiety too that we didn't talk about. Like, Lot of people have phobias about certain things.

Yeah. I I mean, I think that these are

exercise if you're trying to learn JavaScript as well. We had a couple students

And I love food, So I often joke that I could be, like, a food critic. You're a good writer too. You're a great writer. Yeah. Yeah. So I would think about that, like, being a food critic. Yeah. I think you'd I think you're well suited for that. Yeah. Yeah. Be very different.

Oh, is it called Even the Rich? Is that No. No. Because there's one called Even the Rich about No. Some, like, rich people scandals. That's pretty good.

So it's like people, like, and

and, like, hey, we we put them into a real,

You know, your actual job, right, or or whatever you're doing in life and then

you hold it, you stop, and then there's, like like, 10 of those. And then you have, like, a 32nd break and they do 10 more, and then You switch like, there's all this, like, nested Mhmm. Logic inside of it. It's really good to learn. Yeah. Stretching is great too. Stretching, yoga, breathing. I mean, whatever works for you. You have to find something that works.

and affecting you. Right? Whether it's, like, interactions with people or, like, certain environments.

is to, like, accept, that, you know, if something happens, And then it's hard for you to sleep because you're, like, tossing and turning and thinking about whatever it is that you're stressed out about.

Yeah. That I mean, that's a tough one with kids. Right? I feel like there is no time to relax.

like things. Okay. I think it has a spiralizer

It's like you start to stretch,

Awesome

Or drop a review if you like this show.

We're like all of Quora's are now and medium is now doing that. They're making you sign in

in it and push down. Like the grid? Oh, I've Yeah. Like the grid. TikTok chopper. Yeah. Oh, is it a tick see, I'm not on TikTok. Loaded. Actually, you know what? I've been thinking about getting one of these because if looks like You can Really? Eat the entire salad pretty quickly. Yes. I love it. And I I am not like, I love to cook, but I'm not, like, good at dicing things neatly. You know? So if you Are going to a party or or you want, like, your

does it give me all those Things that align with my values or Right? And then rank them on a Probability. So, like, Yeah. I mean I mean, a lot of health issues. Right? Like,

So you're you're talking about, like, taking something that's

And when you truly know, like, your core values and what's important to you, then I think that you can make More informed decisions based on that. Right? So in terms of, like, your career, what's most important to you? Is it your salary? Right? This is an hour a week meal to look really nice? The vegetable chopper is great, but it's also really easy. Our knives suck, though. I'm I'm sure that is, like, part of why. That probably is why. But I love the vegetable chopper. It's, like, $20, can be really helpful too. But if you're having, like, significant anxiety, I think, like, a hard aerobic workout is best. There was the TikTok trend a couple, Maybe about a year ago called the stupid Yep. Okay. Yeah. So,

and don't forget to subscribe in your podcast player

and he's he's very smart. So if you're looking for, like, a high level,

twice monthly

My lovely wife, doctor Courtney Talinski, is going to be here talking about anxiety.

the what is the association between Sentry and Syntax, really, Like, what are we doing? What are we working on? And some of the really exciting things we have coming down the pipeline. So, Yeah. I have a personal experience with that. If yeah. Well, if you've been listening to this podcast for a long time, you'll know that near the start of the podcast,

somebody in the company updates what's going on, and and this was our week to

the Syntax supper club.

what what is

Give an update on syntax and whatnot, so it's kinda cool to show everything we've been working on and about to launch. Yeah. It was really cool to

On this supper club, we have a very special guest.

Alright.

hanging out here. We just had our

stuff that we'll we'll get to share with everybody listening to this podcast very soon.

This is

Yeah. Mhmm. If you're out there and and you are interested in these kind of mental health subjects, we have had Courtney on the show a couple times before.

internal sentry all hands meeting, which is It's like a like a

We're gonna be talking a little bit about Some of the psychological and physiological symptoms of psychology, we're gonna be talking, Is there anything that we did not get to because this is the end of our Questions here. So is there anything that we didn't hit that you wanted to hit on this topic before we get into,

Welcome to Syntax.

Wash those hands, pull up a chair, and secure that feed bag, because it's time to listen to Scott Tolinski and Wes Bos attempt to use human language to converse with and pick the brains of other developers. I thought there was gonna be food,

so buckle up and grab that o handle because this was going to get wide eyed as old.

our, topic today. Courtney,

meeting where we kinda

I sure hope you're hungry.

you know, just some general questions. Some people submitted some anonymous questions via our our help form in the Syntax site. So if, you're out there and you have anxiety or maybe you don't even realize it, This episode should be very interesting to you.

Hoo. I'm starving.

to make sure that if you're launching some code,

Really fill in, you know, everyone with, like,

they have your back, so check it out at century.io.

So give our site a search.

give a overall like, what is it it goes from it's a thing in life that I'm dealing with to a thing in life that is A problem that I need to do something about.

Doctor Talinsky. The kids call you the the feelings doctor. Is that right? Yeah. That is right. That's how I explain it. Because when kids hear doctor, obviously, they're thinking And a therapist is walking you through

truth shots. Yes.

We've talked about,

ADHD,

Yeah. Totally different. Yeah. Probably much happier to Yeah. Sometimes. Friendly truth shots, nonpainful

anything, let us know, and we can do a deep dive focus on that because, And then another question is career anxiety advice. I have a lot of peers who have hit a point in their lives Anxiety.

medical doctor and shots, so we have to be really careful to let them know, no. I don't give shots.

At least you're not a dentist. Right. Yeah. I can't imagine being a dentist, though. Like, Nobody is ever stoked to go to a dentist, except for maybe Scott. We always talk about this. But I'm not no. We're I'm not stoked to go to the dentist. I no. I had a tongue piercing for

Someone else I was talking to who is just like, oh, I love going to jail. Oh my god. Me how Amazing I am. Like, oh, how amazing you are. Lay off. I feel like I always get folded at the dentist about, you know, flossing or whatever. You have Good teeth. Courtney still wears her retainer from I do. Like high school. Yes. So Oh, man. Not the same retainer, mind you, but,

You got good teeth habits. Alright. Well, let's talk about, health habits here. I I guess, first and foremost, I you know, I think what we should assume

too many years, and it it destroyed my gums. So I, I have, like, exposed roots and a bunch of, like, terrible

Tur like, my teeth are fine, but I got gum issues, man, from a bad bad position.

just all kinds of mental health questions. And and sure enough. If you're interested in more mental health,

You talk about feelings. Oh, I I didn't think about that.

we have a doctor in the house. That is for sure.

Overall is that, you know, anybody listening might not have a a clue as to even, like, what, You know, clinically described anxiety is or or how it affects their life. So maybe would it would be interesting if you could

An hour a week to self learning.

absolutely every new thing. You're going to be able to

anymore? That's great.

and I've got so much work to do.

Rust This is probably an a good example of one where it's like, yeah. I would like to learn rust, but

Why don't we say www

Right? And the things that I do need to learn, I can pick up. Right now and I love the idea when you're anxious of just, like,

Yeah. What's the number one thing you tell me to do Whenever I'm feeling scatterbrained. Yes. I always make a plan. Make a plan. Right? Yeah. I I find that way with my to do list. If I've got so much on my plate, We say this all the time. Out of your head, into your system. So to me, it's a to do list, and then I can say, okay. It's it's out of my head. I don't have to, like, keep it all

You'll have learned that skill. Right? You have more confidence in your ability to tackle new things.

then break those things down into, like, actionables.

How do you navigate that? For me, it's it's like,

and you've been around for long enough to see

learning it that's, like, consistent.

this anxiety of whether or not the career is the best fit this career is the best notebook. Yep. Works too. But journaling through your thoughts. Obsidian works well for that, folks. If you have a app, It all works out. Right? That's It all works out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

or careers where they feel that either I do this job for the rest of my life or I change now,

the waves of tech come and go.

but I don't know if there's something better for them. What advice do you have on quieting or addressing

Scoping. Right? Like there's all these things that you can break it down into.

know JavaScript or you know some sort of programming language, and should you need to pick something up,

And, like, Honestly, like, Scott and I are I feel like we're pretty good at that as you do need to take a big topic and break it down into I need to understand Yeah. The functions, the syntax,

And these guys on those podcasts keep talking about

these new words. And I don't I don't understand what they're talking about, and I feel like I have to spend full time learning, and I'm gonna Become out of date, and, oh my gosh, I'm gonna lose my job. I ended up on the street.

I'm going to dedicate to learning. Right. And then you go through your steps like you just said. Right? And so I'm working on step 1 of learning rust. Right? And pretty soon, if you keep that up, it's easy to wash and easy to use.

Right? And every week, I mean, those are the 2 main ones. But, like, experience, You know, I've I've talked to other women who've had, like, Really, Then, a. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's Yeah. It's we're Based in Denver, but we could see kids from anywhere, and our age range is 4 to 21.

And Courtney says, did you make your list, or did you put it down on your to do list? I say, No. I haven't done that yet, but I should. You know? Like,

fit for you. So 2 big decisions questions. Right?

We should. That's what we should do. Yeah.

Right? You know? So being flexible and, you know, talk about the pros and cons, like, are, you know, really great places to go for that.

that's that's a big thing to say. I wanna do that. That's like, I want to learn to juggle. Yeah. It's big and it's hard. It is it's one of those. Yeah. Okay. So, like, just hypothetically, how could you break that down into, like,

with this type of anxiety is a super common question?

Right? So maybe you dedicate, like,

And then, you know, if you have your 1 or 2 after you've made your list, okay, these are the top 2 things I wanna learn, control the situation in your environment.

like, I At a certain point, you get comfortable enough in your skills,

Let's say 5 steps. What would be the first 5 things you would do if you wanted to learn this? I would go straight to www.syntax.fm, learning evaluation center.org.

in terms of, like, what you think is the most important, what's most applicable to the work that you're doing right now.

not to know about And you say, Sit you. You know? And you can go do whatever you want, and the other person has to put the kids to bed, and and they're responsible for them for the the entire night. And that has been

In the ever changing web development tech space, how can I better deal

Because you're right. Like, there's just no way you can possibly know everything.

And then once you have it in

you

and being okay with not knowing something. Being okay with saying, I don't know. I've never done that. It's

look up stuff. You're gonna be able to learn things whenever it is that you need it

jotting down your thoughts, like, getting them out of your head and onto paper. Right? So making a list of, like, All the potential things you wanna learn, right, and being strategic about it. So ranking them

You probably can do that. You can. And it's fine

I recognize that I'm failing at that aspect. Let me go ahead. Yeah.

GI issues.

as well as, like, chronic pain is really helpful.

issues,

And a lot of, if you have anxiety, it can lead to things like substance abuse or reliance on, like, drinking alcohol or Or having more caffeine or, you know, more serious drugs and things like that, you know, 5, 10 minutes a day where you're, like, really focusing on And some sort of, like,

or, even other things like Depression and anxiety and depression tend to go hand in hand.

you're more predisposed to, like, cardiovascular Get the thoughts out of the,

So okay. So I guess

Like, what would you say that

Right. We know, like, IBS. And we're learning more about the gut the gut brain access and how those 2 are, like, really connected.

and then therefore not getting any sleep,

your body's gonna start to have all kinds of issues, and then then you're not gonna sleep. Mhmm. Be anxious and then Right. It's a Oh. Cycle. It's a cycle. Yeah. Gosh. A feedback loop. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Obviously, sleep issues. Right? If you're not getting good sleep, that has long term effects.

upwards of many years without, like, trying to So there was zero chance that any human being would know this thing is in my trunk. And we were going to breakfast, and she was like,

you know, intense anxiety for

If you're experiencing, Yeah. Yes.

treat it. Like, what what can happen to you? that wouldn't be as challenging