Supper Club × Headless Ecommerce with Shopify’s Josh Larson

The Midwest Those were designed for use in the browser. And so,

for the show here.

the instant GraphQL and REST API,

Des Moines, Iowa. So where that you can query and and perform mutations against in in your server components or API routes, that would be perfect. Otherwise, yeah, you're right. It'd it'd probably be your own sort of dev serverless function that you're hitting or, an s three bucket or something like that. Yeah. Yeah.

so buckle up and grab that old handle because this ride is going to get wild.

United States,

at Shopify are, you know, looking at our the performance of our stores pretty critically and wanting to improve those, and so there was a team that was Okay. Did that.

I'm from Iowa.

Alright.

the Syntax supper club.

Maybe maybe. Who knows what else will come up? And we are just doing some Canadian banter before,

Welcome to Syntax. This is a Supper club. We've got Shopify's

I'm a senior staff developer at Shopify. I joined about a year and a half ago on the performance team, online store performance.

Let's get into it. Welcome, Josh. Thanks so much for coming on. Thanks for having me. I'm super excited to to chat with y'all. Yeah. So, I'm, yeah, not Canadian, but kinda close. I just thought you were Canadian because we were talking about the the Rogers outage the other day. But assuming a lot of you I, Well, I have a lot of Canadian coworkers.

And you've been working at Shop Wait for how long? About a year and a half.

Oh, I'm starving.

I sure hope you're hungry.

Where are you from? Are you from Ottawa?

Oh, that's good.

We, Vue and Svelte and Angular and Ember developers out there, And you can do npm install, my third party widget Mhmm. And drop in the server component in your app, and then your data's The tricky thing about that is you are generally probably gonna be developing locally we had, like, a React provider,

I've been at Shopify. Yeah. That's awesome. And, like, why don't you give us a a quick little rundown of of what it is you do at Shopify, and then we'll We'll dig into the nitty gritty of it. Yeah. For sure. I work, But I think that that server components bet is gonna pay off, especially right there. Interesting. Yeah. That's this is, like, the first time I've been talking to somebody who's, like, a production running server components. And you guys are not even just production running it. You're you're you have a framework built upon it, which is really cool to hear,

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So, we are, stoked to get going. We're sponsored today by 2 awesome companies. First one is Hasura,

This is

Does

It's a great question. I and I'm not super familiar with what I'm about to tell you. So Okay.

hydrogen?

which is the instant GraphQL for your data that's using Any Postgres or Postgres family of database.

If so, then that would be perfect. I think, like, having a data platform within

and you'll get 3 months of Hasura cloud standard free tier. Only the first 100 people get this, so please, And that's, like, the big problem in my mind with headless

It's time consuming, and it's difficult. And with HESARA, you no longer need to do that. You can save half of that time That you would be spent building your API and maintaining it, and you can put that into actually doing real work. So sign up for HasuraCloud's Are are you guys taking advantage of any these new React APIs, any of these,

I'm seeing some some fancy, like, Veet stuff. It seems like Veet,

and create Styles of APIs from one configuration to support new and existing architectures.

handles the server side rendering and hydration and and things like that.

my own custom dev that would be done somewhere else?

You don't need to write your GraphQL server by hand anymore Ecommerce in general is the lack of integration there.

I have a question about, like, where does custom logic fit into this type of thing? So,

Kind of building a a CMS within Shopify is is in our road map. Mhmm. But also, I think the the idea of React server components is like, a really good pattern. It's a good separation of concerns incremental static regeneration, static stuff that was regenerated.

head on over there right now and give this a try. Thanks so much for HESARA for sponsoring.

You have granular authorization

I'm not I'm the thing is I'm not sure if we're planning to, like, Support customer, you know, submitted data. Right? Like, is that the intended use case of that?

API.

That, like, custom logic would have to, at some point, happen in, like, a serverless function or on the server side.

free tier. It just takes a moment and you can get started. And you can get real time GraphQL Yeah. I would I would be interested in that too. Yeah. Oh, let's talk about integrations. So,

like, what's the the suspense or anything like that? And just maybe talk about some of the underlying tech Behind, what what goes into hydrogen and how it works? Yeah. Absolutely.

and I think one of our biggest goals is to move a lot of this Kind of customize data

Because all you have to do is point Hasura to your data source and let it auto generate your GraphQL

Free trial. You can use the coupon code, try Hasura, instantly. So head on over to hasura.infoforward/

baked in so you can secure access to all of your data sources, databases, or any other external GraphQL

So do do you wanna take a minute to maybe, like, talk about, like, the stack behind

Does that Encompass that, or was that would that be my own,

You can even have your own GraphQL API sources bringing into Hasura

Because let's face it, building and maintaining your own GraphQL servers

Shopify, I don't see a group. I don't know what it is. But so my hydrogen, teammate, Brett Little, I think he's the one who talked to you on Twitter about Okay. Why why we're part of that, but he's he's he's part of that.

So this was April 2021 that we started working on hydrogen.

rules Down to the individual row and column level, you can also simultaneously share GraphQL and REST APIs

and then add complex authorization

we were like, gosh. Do we need to invent yet another sort of loader thing at the route level? And, like, everyone's doing it, and they have to do it, like, slightly different way. Or can we lean into this new thing called server components? And

React eighteen's We believe that

Queries against the storefront API and get all your product information and stuff.

We have an initial set of partners working with, with us in Hydrogen, cart is included with hydrogen.

The data is fetched, and it's, sent to the clients using that,

that they published was built with Webpack,

and maybe we'll we'll Like, we've been really focused on the core experience, but we definitely are planning to strip them out and make them composable with other other frameworks too. Oh, yeah. That's that's really cool because people have asked us all the time, like, hey. Should I build my own ecommerce?

That is a, code.

it means a lot smaller client bundles. So it also ideally means a lot faster hydration support.

loader functions in Remix.

It's, it's been really I think it was a really good decision.

Yeah. A year ago, it was it was hardly anything, and now it's It's exploded everywhere. Yeah. I was gonna say it's hard not to to just pick it once you once you try it because it's so good. It's so fast. It's really, really good.

data fetching with a really performant front end. And we were looking at what, you know, Next. Js did with git static props, and, You click a button. You now have a storefront running on Shopify's infrastructure we had these grand plans of, like, alright. We're gonna build a Super cool UI toolkit.

Specifically, one choice we made early on was To lean into this idea of React server and then your so, yeah, oxygen is is powered in a lot in part by hydrogen and oxygen, that Penalty goes down a bit because now

shortly after that.

Honestly, like, it was still early days for Veets. It was Veet. I think 2 had just come out, and Evan Yu

and I'm sure that is only gonna expand.

because developers can write server components. You can fetch data in those server components directly. You don't have to have a route level data loader like get static props or, And We had the ability to we have these components for, like, I I think are personally

Step aside and build a a custom storefront using modern headless tech. I just wanna see what the landscape is like. I wanna wanna test our dog food or APIs. Right? I wanna see where the holes are. And he chose Veet because that was, like, the hotness. Well, Honestly, I don't know if you even know if it was the hotness yet because it became the hotness, But the these UI components we just kinda went for it. And so we we reverse engineered a version of server components that worked in Vite, because the the proposal

Streaming SSR and suspense data fetching. So it was a whole bunch of, like,

had just migrated from it being a view only project to, like, an agnostic project. Right? And and that was v 2. And so that was that meant that React was supported and SSR and React was supported. And so Kind of the product detail page when you click on, like, a variant.

on top of that, we added React. You know, you just have to choose something at this point. React is super popular. We know there are a ton of A few months into that role, I switched to join a new project called Hydrogen, which is a, It is, so Shopify is investing super heavily in this concept of meta fields or meta objects, Hydrogen

React serving components syntax

I think potentially, like, agnostic to React, Just vanilla JavaScript.

client bundle that loads in the browser, only contains JavaScript code that is used,

new experimental tech coming together at once. Yeah.

use shop query in Hydrogen that you can use to fetch data and run GraphQL it's it's kinda what we call it internally, but it's essentially you know, it's the the the Shopify experience that you're used to with The templates and the themes and the all the cool settings and,

And they were certainly not, like, production ready. And e commerce experience, you want to have something that renders on the server. You're making a lot of, calls to your personal databases, but also Shopify's APIs on the server. And you wanna have something, meta framework. Right? Maybe you wanna take these and use them in Next. Js or in Remix.

components. Server components had only been kind of announced as a an idea or a proposal Mhmm. In December 2020.

and we started building our APIs around React server components. So there's this hook called And so we ended up building Hydrogen. Hydrogen runs,

You don't have to wire it up. You don't have to do all that stuff. And so

and that's not even touching any shipping integrations or fulfillment or Or anything like that. So Yep. What I see by this is that, like, like, sometimes you do. Like, you either go all in on, like, a Theme and the template system, and you take something that's built or or you build it from scratch. So what I see this is as sort of like a middle ground where it's like, I do want to build my own thing, Or like you said, eventually, I already have a react application that I don't want to integrate e commerce into.

And you probably don't wanna endure that type of hurt,

When is the time to go to a custom storefront or they think that they need to go headless when, really, they don't? And what we've been telling people, I think it's gonna play well into the the, like, third party developer ecosystem in the future because the

You incurred a huge cost of development time. Now you're you you're responsible for all of your site's code. You've gotta hire developers to, Wait as long as you can. If if you're using Shopify's online store, And it's it's called JavaScript or or JSX. Right? You can write your entire store and template it out right in, in React land. Yeah. There's something about, like, components. I think this is my theory. And I don't know if you y'all agree is Liquid is decidedly not a a programming language. It's it's a templating language. It's not There's a certain limit to what you're gonna do and and what the functionality is gonna be, at least today.

Hydrogen and oxygen are the equivalent of liquid. Right? You just Yeah.

that The the tech it's interesting because what happened is Toby, our CEO, took a week and was like, okay. I need to

rather large merchant with, the capability of hiring an agency or development team,

the Shopify online store is is really probably what you wanna continue doing.

That can get you that is suitable for most people.

That said, like, developers like the 3 of us or or folks listening to this are are probably the ones who are also experimenting with it. Like, I I can write that code. Like, I can I can handle it? So there's probably that that crowd too. But, Set cookie.

probably CMS, like Sanity or Contentful, That is, like it's pretty closely tied to React state management, and it's a bunch of React folks. Kidding. And so you can't, like, necessarily strip that out. You can maybe get utility functions out of it. You know? Yeah. But at what point is that gonna be actually beneficial to people?

The reason is that as soon as you go headless, especially before hydrogen and oxygen were introduced, I think what we were doing early on When building hydrogen, it's like, we were trying to find a way to promote or enforce server only It was, with with the introduce a server side hook, a server only And so that runs in server components.

not only, like, build the initial template, which, like we said, is pretty pretty complicated, but then also keep it updated. Right? As as the APIs change or as, you know, The new thing comes out or you may need to swap out a marketing hero.

apps and liquid,

You've gotta integrate with the content, Yeah. What do they they call it? Assembling a plane while you're flying it? Or Yeah. Like, you know, those dangerous metaphors. But, Yeah. It's yet to be seen, like, how much is, Yeah. That's a great question, and we get this a lot too, It's, super interesting. The this kinda goes back to templating customizations,

Yeah. That's what we've been focusing on right now because, With the initial And, it also means, And, it it includes kind of all the the bells and whistles you would expect when building an online store, Yeah. We were I mean, looking at the landscape of of, you know, What ended up happening is that we found out that's, like, building A our own hosting platform is quite difficult, and I think this is definitely not off the table, Vercel or Netlify or a Docker container somewhere in the world.

who are asking us

enough? Like, what's the benefit of going headless on this?

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We had a lot of examples of these. But as it turns out, I think they were they ended up being too rigid.

Other things that, we call it, One of those things is components, and, like, The the benefit that I get from working with React is that I can write components and I can reuse components across my site. I can write a really, like, scalable, maintainable system.

and,

that is Both performant but also designed for that.

every single ecommerce site needs.

apply discounts potentially or do whatever sort of things that you might want to do in your custom card and then, and then go to the checkout. So,

super beneficial are the,

what,

and we were left with these really critical ones like carts and selected options, selected variants.

8 sizes of men's and Eight sizes of women's. And before you you realize, you have, like like, 40 different permutations of just a silly little t shirt. Like, that's not even, like, a real business that's selling real stuff. You know? It gets out of control over quickly. So because of that, my my answer is always just like, it's kind of complex,

One interesting thing that

a a Node. Js runtime, but also a workers runtime. So you can deploy it To, you know, cough their workers, Netlify's We've encountered over the last 14 months of building hydrogen is that we initially had a bunch of components. And, into meta objects.

It it seems like that's one of the big problems Hydrogen is trying to solve. Do you wanna talk about Some of the the components that exist here. Yeah. No. You you touched on a really good one, which is cart. And I think that's honestly a huge value proposition,

one thing that I I really like about this approach is that, you know, many times that we've worked with,

And I think it we're in a really good spot now.

which is A fancy way for the folks who aren't familiar, like, to to kinda pass state all the way down to, like, nested,

frameworks, you had your Gatsby, you had Next. Js, which was,

Deno, Obviously, for customizing your storefront with you know, for free, and, That was the kind of the the initial who is the the base of our stack? And

It can be pretty complex, and so there's a lot of logic that goes into that. It's It's literally, I think, a a hook or a provider right now, a worker's runtime.

maybe.

And

And, that that builds that functionality for you.

And my answer to that always is, like, if it's, like, simple,

especially headless ecommerce. Do you find yourselves

you have interactions When you add to cart, then you, of course, have the ability to modify quantity, remove from carts, customize line items in your cart,

storefront API. And, And,

Batch of, partners and customers that started building with hydrogen

Kinda leaning into

What is it called? Like, selected options or something like that.

You click on, like, I want the blue shoes. So now I I know never mind. I want the red choose, and then it updates the price or it changes the button to say, oh, those are out of stock. So that interaction, like, to allow other folks to update the site. And and then, of course, you gotta host the thing, and you're you gotta keep it up and add monitoring and logging and performance Metrics and it's so that's why we say, like, unless you're a big, don't necessarily have to be tied to, is that we've been kinda looking for for a while. Like, this runs in the server, and I know it's only gonna run-in the server. This runs in the client.

we have these components that,

You have a cart that needs to be synced with some third party API like Shopify's, in client components, it doesn't include any of that server side logic, and

ecommerce,

But, like, once you get into it, Oh, my goodness. Does it get complex quick? Like, I did,

Making a lot of the same types of things over and over again, whether that's like a shopping cart or,

but also a a node server running wherever Heroku that you want to. So, Just like you had with Liquid, it's it's hosting for you. It's code for you. You can tweak it as needed. And we should say for everyone listening, Liquid

we were, you know, trying to figure out, okay, how do we build something? We believe that commerce is inherently dynamic. Right?

is a React meta framework that lets you build custom storefronts on Shopify.

a while back about, like, headless ecommerce. Like, how would you do it?

Alright. So we had a couple questions,

What are the pros? What are the cons of that type of stuff? And

We we offer all sorts of data fetching utilities and, like a cart that works out of the box because it's kind of a complex interaction. Right? You have Totally.

via my Gatsby website with a with a headless solution.

Super opinionated for Shopify.

I I've done a little bit of it myself. I sold many t shirts,

you know, customer, add some flavors in the future to support those folks. But we started with React.

at the time, I was just like, I don't know.

node server site or either or, or is it just 1 1 or the other? Yeah. So it's definitely,

I mean, the 2 of them go really well together, but you it's not exclusive to Oxygen, you can deploy hydrogen to

Yet, like, back in well, what was last year? 2021? children.

in a custom way. So

which is kinda aiming to do exactly that. So you wanna give us a rundown of of what that is? Yeah. So,

a

So so Hydrogen ships like a, a static site or a

And then around that time, Shopify sort of rolled out this thing called Hydrogen,

and performance and and everything that you would expect, with an e commerce stack. And then also Paired with hydrogen is Oxygen, our our hosting platform. So,

But I've never like,

I don't know, I never had like a good like, oh, this is the thing that you you wanna go with, right? Josh Larson on here to talk to us about headless ecommerce, Shopify's Hydrogen,

interactions and and all that sort of stuff,

if if I sound a little rusty, then you you know why? We're tired. It came out of retirement or not retirement, but out of paternity leave just for the center of return. Pretty cool. Yeah. That's awesome. Congrats.

And so, yeah, to to answer your question, you do have to be conscious of that. Like, oh, I can't call.

they want it to sort of work everywhere. Right? And and I was like, but why would Shopify want to be on this? And I'm not sure if it's you or somebody else on your team said, like, we just want so somebody from,

so that you can deploy this thing to Deno or to Netlify

try to shy away from using,

this is like a big

It's really cool that it runs on Cloudflare because I was curious about that in terms of, like,

To,

this to work literally everywhere.

So Is that something that you need to, like, pay attention to? Are there specific

if things don't really work well across,

Cloudflare. And,

v eight isolates, which is kind of the same sort of backing tech that Kovler uses.

because they want, is just JavaScript functions, and how much of it is specifically React stuff? Do you have any any concept of that?

yeah. No. That makes sense.

to Remix hadn't been released yet, and

and we've talked about this. Go back and listen to the Edge function shows that we've done. But essentially is that there are more and more frequently there are other JavaScript environments than your browser

API environment. And so where you're selecting a red or blue shoes, I don't know. I can't import FS, right, if I'm planning to deploy to, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

in a node, introduction of,

APIs that you're not allowed to touch

And they're it's a workers' runtime, quote unquote, Where you have,

specific APIs that don't work everywhere

Bloomberg has its own version. So there's all these different environments. And the idea is it's like, well, this is going to be a big pain in the butt

Yeah. That's what Vete uses. Right? Deno, I think you can use Deno dotm or something. And so it's different, it makes it very difficult to build a a standard around that if you're a framework author like Hydrogen.

And it makes sense if you wanna deploy hydrogen to node as well because then it's the same, but then you switch to a different environment, Oh, and and it goes to kind of a build step to package it up for, like, a single file worker.

or to into Node. Like, this is not just I I think this is not just a Node environment. Is that right? Right. Yeah. I mean, it's such a it's an interesting topic, especially building a framework in, you know, this day and age where you have all these different deployment targets. And What? Last week, bun bun js was introduced, and so you they just keep coming. Right? you know, approach to that? So if you're a node, you use process dot m. If If you're in CallFire workers, you get them, like, passed to you as a callback function to your fetch handler.

or at least use adapters so that they'll they'll work in there. So, Yeah. That's cool. So the the winter CG, I think, is kind of the answer to that. Right? I forget what it's called. Like, web interoperable

Dino, and then there's Bun, and Cloudflare has its own sauce.

Are you familiar with I want Yeah. Winter CG. Second here. Winter CG. Yeah. So I was like at the time, I was like like, well, I don't know. Like, I get it. I get why Cloudflare would want to be a part of this committee, 2 different t shirts,

And the server and node, there is even in the browser alone, there is there's there's workers. Right? and just stick to a set of APIs that will work across

with their new kind of workers

So Like,

Node JS environment.

Oxygen. Right? We started building oxygen And Yeah. I think it's not as much as we would have hoped. Like like, Our our our custom storefront stack that we're we're building and have built and launched now. And so I've been working on that the last Year and a half, and, yeah, that's what I do, on a day to day basis. Right right now, I'm actually on paternity leave, so I, I I don't remember work. It's been a few weeks. Oh, thanks. So it's kind of like the ideal goal is is

around the same time we started building hydrogen. And we initially built oxygen using, another example is,

This is like a big framework Of Shopify. Right? Yeah. It was. Yeah. It's cool because it's used in like, I use liquid all over the place. If I write a email for my, email newsletter, I have to template that out Liquid. It's it's very popular templating language, but, like, the next generation of that is is even more powerful.

But now there is, and I wanted to build like a like a mug maker, in React where people can upload photos, you can slap some text On it and you can pattern stuff. And then and then when that's done, you ship it off to Shopify and and you check out.

in the long run. But we partnered with Cloudflare, certain things like I can't remember. I feel like response dot from folks in order to have a a really personalized

TikTok, Please get at us. We would love to have you on to talk about how you're using

like, what JavaScript you're using to host your TikToks. Yeah.

Really? What horse TikTok has in this, but I'm very curious. I would assume they have a lot of horses in that. Yeah. Yeah. I guess they got Host one of the largest websites in the entire world. So Right. They're probably

And, For platforms, announcement that they they had a few months ago. Okay. And like, not static, and and that's kind of a decision we made early on when building hydrogen.

using the, you know, their Request response objects, which is kinda the the web API So what we did was,

Like, runtime variables,

a and like a,

and things like WebKit on PlayStation and whatnot. And bite dance. Do you know who bite dance is, Scott? TikTok. Yeah. Yeah. So they I don't know

What

interface that you would expect in a Cloudflare Worker,

runtime, And we're not there yet. We haven't

some examples are,

that's another question I I I had from people is that, like,

right, in in every environment. Can we build a standards,

what's it called? E commerce platform. Right. Like, if you have an e commerce platform because shop Shopify can kind of be your website, but not really. Most people will have, like, a separate,

That addresses those needs. Or, Having something built,

Yeah. You're not supposed to be able to do that in a browser. Mhmm. But you want to in a server, and so that makes like, if you're using Depending on what shim you're using or what runtime you're using, your results might be differently if you're trying to set cookies on an outgoing response. And so that's that's,

The sort of thing that the the the working group is attempting to address, and I'm super excited to see, you know, what they come up with. I was just looking at a list of companies that were part of the Winter CG, and there's 2 new ones since we last talked about it. There's Agalia, which,

we're gonna have some folks from Magalia on. They work they work primarily on WebKit,

should you have, like, a CMS and like let's say I had an e commerce store that was selling, like, custom mugs, and they're saying I want it to work literally everywhere. And if you if you are deploying Durkka to Cloudflare, like, Maybe we should explain 1 step back for our our listeners is that, across all of it. So the idea is that we

So can we come up with a new API that's gonna be huge.

how do you do, selected variant add to cart button, and it was like a really long component name space. And, had a lot of custom data needs, which makes total sense. Right? You're building Yeah. A headless storefront, you're gonna wanna do something custom. And so we were kind of pigeonholing them with these components, and then we started removing component after component after component.

Hydrogen UI package that we're proposing that we build and Yeah. Get some of that stuff, the the complex interactions, the UI stuff,

And it's kinda cool because, like, I was I was looking at it. It's like, well, if you wanna do your own button, you don't have to use the Shopify button. You just wrap it in the add to cart button. You put your own button inside of there, and you can still style it and and make it how however you want. Is that correct of of how I have it? Yeah. I think that would be the ideal case. Right? If If you already have an existing thing, you could drop in Shopify's,

So my question also is, like, people are listening, like, why would you want to go headless For an e commerce, like, isn't having a Shopify storefront

manage your cart, fetch your products,

add to cart.

that would be super cool.

So, like, What do I do with that? And and this is a set of components that will allow you to

I don't have to copy paste a bunch of horribly nested, the Fetched.

solution for that. But also and you look at, like I think Rails is embracing components of the view layer at some point. Laravel, The same way I I work on Laravel stuff on the side, and I really enjoy working with their component views, all server side rendered. But just that abstraction is huge.

I I believe it was actually created by by Toby,

A liquid is, the templating language that is used by Shopify.

And I really enjoy working with components. And so React is, I think, a A sensible,

This episode is sponsored by Hasura,

like, JavaScript

Yeah. We've done,

Node, Cloudflare, and I had 2 different colors of those t shirts. And like, so between those 2 things and then there's,

Deno,

I'm curious about, like, authoring a library like this. Like, How much of the code when you wrote this thing

can be shared and how much of it is just bespoke per per framework.

Vercel and Shopify rolled out the,

interop committee.

might be Hevesfelt or might maybe Vue.

example to return to the selected options

the

we've had discussions about those too. And I know we've been asked like, okay. How How can we strip this down and and package it in a way that is, more of a browser like JavaScript API environment than a Node. Js This, of course, went hand in hand with You know, Hydrogen's

Josh, was it you on somebody on Twitter? I was asking when