Mental Health and Dev ft Dr. Courtney Tolinski - Depression, Anxiety, Imposter Syndrome, Focus, Motivation, Burnout

primarily with children and adolescents, but I love to work with adults as well. Currently, I am the director of a learning evaluation center here in Colorado, the, like, happiest people you've ever met. Like, I've had some clients that just, like, radiate sunshine,

this general

and adults.

Another one would be, as someone who struggles with depression, what are some things that I can do to rekindle the things that I enjoy, like developing and hobbies? This would be a great benefit for me for learning more dev related things than doing outside work. Another, my depression is due to some things in my personal life, and I'm 2 years into it. Coding has brought me a little life back and the only thing I have to do. So do you wanna talk a little bit about the basics of depression and maybe, I wanted to ask the doctor, why do I feel that I have to work on 1,000 projects that seem to never finish? It's anxiety inducing.

Togetherness

I don't know. Do you wanna give a little brief introduction about who you are and what you do?

advice that I'm able to give will be helpful to a lot of people. Yeah. Totally.

So I'll let you Scott of kick it off there, Scott, and, and get going.

We're we're we're also,

focus on job performance, motivation, remote work, stress, and we'll just have a conversation. It's gonna be pretty relaxed. And, and, honestly, I know Courtney probably would want this disclaimer, and I don't wanna speak for her. But despite the fact that she is a doctor of psychology,

someone rather than take advice directly from this podcast. Is that fair to say, Courtney?

or therapist if you're having serious issues. But, hopefully,

something that depressed people hear all the time. You don't look sad. You you know, you aren't, like, why don't you just feel better kind of thing.

the, the Twitter a couple weeks ago just about what sort of questions people might have for Courtney. And I what I did is I I broke these up into several different sections, and I figured we could talk about each of these just sort of generally and then, you know,

and they're like like That's like chef Mike. We've been calling our microwave chef Mike

So today, we're sponsored by Sanity and FreshBooks.

just explaining depression would be great. Too many times I've heard, but you don't look sad. And that is really, the things they enjoy in life?

It's like we're doing a duet. Yeah.

honestly,

just so we can get like, you know, hopefully if you're feeling this way that you can have a little bit of,

for things like ADHD,

Sanity is a structured content CMS. FreshBooks is cloud accounting. We'll talk about them partway through the Node, but welcome, folks. Thanks. Hi. And I'm happy to be here. Yeah. Happy to have you here.

up in the house. This is the perfect opportunity to have everybody. Right. Yeah. Can I just say what I'm experiencing right now is Scott and Courtney are sharing this, like, set of, like, Android earbuds that they got from a gumball machine,

and mood disorders. I've also done a lot of, therapy as well with children

with other people who are potentially going through the same thing. So some people say,

Just a kind of a interesting time right now with the coronavirus going around, And and, and you won't eat any that's okay. I love carrots. Oh my god. Yeah. I can't even

I am a doctor of educational and clinical psychology. I work

autism, learning disabilities,

my lovely wife, doctor Courtney Tolinski.

So with us on the show today is just how many people seem to be like superstar,

Yeah. Yeah. We're both speaking in the same mic. This is this is a budget budget, or,

We have we're gonna be talking a little bit about depression, anxiety,

Same as in part from each other?

So the first little bit, we wanted to talk about depression. So I wanted to read some, some messages anonymously that people had sent me, So do you have any,

I think a lot of people are hurting. So I thought it's a great idea. Scott said, like, hey, what do you think about having Courtney on the show? I was like, perfect timing. I think this is this is absolutely perfect.

Yeah. Yeah. It's important to always, of course, speak to your doctor,

if you have anything directly with yourself, you should probably reach out to for 7 seconds, hold your breath.

think about the motivating factors. What are the motivating factors in this work is often learning new things, driving yourself forward, pushing yourself in different ways. So if you're doing client work or whatever and you can't figure out how to drive yourself forward, really see what kind of variables you can affect Vercel. Like,

the bore out, I guess, low.

every day, and so I don't quite always know what to expect, and that keeps app. That's that's what I recommend for kids doing homework. Right? So I think the same idea applies to adults as well, but it's really the idea of working for that could be really powerful for as well. Just the idea of it's it's not like this finite black and white thing. Well, they're really great, and I'm not. Right? There's there's a lot of gray in there.

then it could get really boring. Although, I've worked on Vercel up tutorials.com Node under stress? Sorry. Sometimes these these questions come in and we gotta interpret them a little bit. So,

with that. But what do you what do you 2 do? I think I think you could better answer that question.

this has been so so good and so illuminating. We should have you on again to do more stuff because,

Ask for that time to maybe work on side projects or learn new things, and that will help maybe push you forward. Keep it fresh.

and expenses. So go buy a coffee or something like that on a on a meeting. I can expense half of that. I put it into FreshBooks.

Alright. The last topic we wanna dive into you know what? Honestly, Court, I think

At the end of the year, I those 2 things. They also have all kinds of really good reports, so you can see where you're at in terms of money coming in, money going out, who owes you money, who you need to shake down, things like that. So, check it Node, FreshBooks .comforward/syntax,

Well, I don't I think these are more appropriate questions for you 2 than me. I know in my job, I'm I'm doing something different

because we both like to try new things. But if you get bored, try something new. If you need motivation,

hey. Can I try this new framework out on this project? Sure. Just do it. Ask your boss.

And so, like, agencies, a lot of the times, your work is the work comes in, you build it, you ship it, you work on something else, and you don't support it for too long. Or or there isn't support because, She is a doctor of educational psychology.

If you have more questions for Courtney or anything like that, we can have her back on again and and do a round 2 of this because, you know, there's just so much here. This last section is gonna be on stress. We got a couple of questions on stress, which is,

get more time to work in FreshBooks before taxes are due.

do something for a long time. And if I don't like what I'm working on, I need to work on something else. And I've just realized that about myself is that, like, fortunately, I have a job where I can do that. Yeah. But I I can't work on something for for too long, and I've certainly had client projects where I'm just like, this will never end,

you know, your your specialty is, in fact, educational.

Just try something new is really it. I know that that's sort of the message that we've been saying,

eating to cope with stress? So, like, positive coping strategies for stress and just stress in general. I know a lot of us are under some really tight deadlines.

being aggressive, and also how do you avoid

the coronavirus

Certainly, there's a mental burnout encourage, like, my clients to do would be self care. Right? And so a lot of times, I'll have them make a list of all the different things that they enjoy doing to take care of themselves,

Well, have you have you talked about my field.

you know, the the boreout, the burnout, how do you deal with, and especially right now when everybody is sort of on edge and anxious Yes. Yes. That Node. Yes. And then in a developer sense, maybe

how do you identify the source of negative stress, and how do you deal with, not lashing out,

myself for so long, but the fact that I'm the boss and I can make the calls here, if I wanna learn framer motion, Eat That Frog? Is that Brian Tracy Eat That Frog? Yeah. I I think that's We talk about Eat That Frog quite a bit on this show.

that's sort of one of the reasons why I love doing

So, like, maybe we could talk parenting stuff, talk,

how do you deal with the loss of focus and happiness in web development, what I'm doing right now because I do get that freedom and the ability to to change all those things. So I don't know. What I would advise is maybe find some ways to switch it up in your job. I know you don't always have the ability to be the decision maker, but switch it up even if it is as simple. This is gonna sound dumb, but even if it's as simple as changing your theme in Versus Node, switch it up. Switch it up. Try it something different.

Yeah. Let us know what you wanna see.

Yeah. Honestly, this happens to me all the time, and it's it's just the fact that I can't and use syntax in the how did you hear about us section. Thanks so much to FreshBooks for sponsoring.

managers and bosses over the time. So I don't know what kind of advice you can give there.

adolescent problems or things like that, but I think there's so many topics here that we didn't even get to cover.

dealing with

Yeah. That was always the thing about me for agency life. That's why I liked working on agency so much. I even liked it working more on well, even when I worked for Ford, we were building prototypes. So it Wes something new Yeah. Wes.

the source of negative stress

So managers

Get some new new flows going on, and try some new extensions, maybe some new new plug ins that make it so you can type or code differently.

And it's just like one of our sponsors. We're gonna wanna keep it fresh, and that's FreshBooks.

So I actually these messages this term that I never heard of, bore out. Have you heard of bore out? I've heard of burnout.

chances are it's just like a brochure or something or or site that you know, you gave them a CMS, and chances are they'll never even log in to it. So these things just sort of sit there. So for me, that was always a big driver is the fact that you're always working on something new, and that's one of the reasons why I love web web development so much. But I could see if you're working on a product

And then somebody says, working for yourself at home, you don't get the chance to bounce ideas of encouragement off of other people. What are some good ways to compensate to ensure you have a positive mindset? So how do you stay motivated? How do you stay sane? How do you I do have a small note about these distraction free apps.

Thank you, FreshBooks.

It did. Unfortunately,

I know. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, I mean, obviously, we're all under an insane amount of stress right now.

how can I correctly identify

my FreshBooks

do some transformation to them, put them on a CDN so that they are fast all over the world because that's probably one of the largest pieces,

Not a whole lot. I I I've certainly been nervous in lots of situations

and it was scary. Yeah. Yeah.

how do I keep motivation and focus? I I find myself enjoying work, but I have a hard time focusing on it. All of the distraction free apps don't work because I can turn them off, and they literally have no power over me.

you feel that you didn't deserve it for some reason, and you externalize,

I'm under depression medication. Sometimes I feel scared that I am so slow. It doesn't feel accomplished

Right? So it's important to understand that that everybody feels that way, and what it shows is that, there's a strong sense of, like, high achievement there. Right? And that's something that,

podcast on purpose or anything, so, don't think we're we're doing that. But, with more about Sanity images, which is a neat,

hotspot sort of in focus so that as you create different sizes of your images, it's not always going to be, cut off, walking around. These are regular people working these Certainly, they've learned over time, and I could probably do that as well.

can't talk about it. Right? They feel like, oh, well, dressed. Yeah.

through over the years, and I I think that's awesome. Like, you're not good at JavaScript yet, but you certainly can get better.

but it's the idea of just being flexible with yourself and knowing that I have a lot of these foundational skills,

I can't tell people because then they're gonna find out that I'm a fraud.

meaning that, like, my confidence level JS probably

I just

thing, which is, like, what do you do about images

that's called the cognitive distortion,

I think that's just, like, a low self confidence or low self esteem.

psychologist. Right? So that's predominantly

YouTube tutorials or you're even cognizant of the fact that you don't know things, then you are ahead of the game. You are just a better developer than you give yourself credit for. So I guess that's my

And I even just Wes they emailed me, they're like, hey. You wanna work at Google? I was like, me?

and you can

Ruby, Python, JavaScript, subscribers. So,

your image, whether it's rectangle or square or, I don't know, trapezoid or whatever,

that I'm a fraud. Right? So that's, like, the crux of what impostor syndrome JS, and I do a lot of diagnostic evaluations keeping up on those haircuts. Right? Shaving or, you know, whatever it is for for dudes. For girls, it could be, like, putting on makeup or, you know, whatever it is that makes you feel your Bos. Doing those things are really important.

I fooled them somehow. Right? I tricked them into thinking that I could

I figured it all out,

recommendation, and that's what I reach to JS that if I'm feeling inadequate in my skills, I just think about all the cool stuff I can build, Even if it's just getting, to me, those focus apps, in particular, block that really well. But I think the best advice you you've given me is that having the to do ESLint.

doesn't think they're good enough?

So let's take a a quick break to talk about one of our our sponsors.

Right. Certainly friends and communities

They feel anxious about the amount of workload they have, and they're anxious about their current

not only is Sanity really good at just being a headless CMS, but they've got that whole second

and they apply that. They sort of project that out onto their entire career. Like, I could never learn that because that's kinda like math. That's Right. Too complicated for someone like Basically, I use FreshBooks to keep track of all of our invoices. So if we invoice someone for a sponsor, it gets sent out via FreshBooks, and it's it's pretty cool because you can take an image, put a hot spot on it. So maybe

I I haven't done this yet, or I I haven't figured this out quite yet. And that that word yet is really powerful, if the stress eating is an issue, then portioning I am really good, like you're saying with Google. Right? I'm a great developer, Taking care of yourself, making sure you're getting dressed,

Sanity will keep that Yeah. Call it out. That's a really good point. Yeah. So that's that's the first step. And then,

feature from Sanity, is WES. Yeah. So we talk about Sanity. They're a headless CSS,

in JavaScript.

that you can refer back to. Because it's really easy to forget all those things in the moment and to focus on the thing that you maybe aren't as good at as somebody else.

you know that if you are using images on your website, you probably need to resize them,

Yeah. We see it a lot because people bring this,

Is educational and and clinical psychology. I worked with a lot of adults, but I I really enjoy working with children, and that's my expertise. And so one of the things that we do with kids, and it's kind of like this new movement in education, is to talk about growth mindset. Are you familiar with that? No. No? Okay. About it. Yeah. It's the idea, right, that our brain is a muscle. Right? Is it it's actually a Vercel?

line this up for Sanity to be on the mental health, again, we don't have the sale up as of the 2nd that we're recording this, but it will be up by the time this podcast is out. So, also, if you've purchased a monthly or yearly subscription Thank you. So the next spot we wanted to talk about would be focus on job performance. We did get a lot of questions on this as well, and here's one. It says, Somebody, one of us, should write a book, How to Talk to Developers.

it? Oh, it's just a cloud accounting software that Wes loves and uses every single day. And,

especially with kids, but I think that adults,

It's pretty cool. So, A little bit, but not really, because we haven't recorded in 2 weeks, and the world has been flipped out ahead in 2 weeks.

in in this case done for you? So check it out. Sanity.i0forward/

but maybe this Node thing is something that, you know, I need more development on, you know, that I'm not quite good at. So I think that that's really helpful having that that list of strengths.

and tried to do my best and ask questions wherever possible,

you know, the color green on the screen, just a green background or something, it's still cool that you're able to produce a website at all, right? I I think that's just, like

in a lot of things. Basically, I'm just like, I don't know. We'll figure it out. Or I Right. Like, these are just regular people

Yeah. How how to deal with assist how to deal with anxiety caused by today's ESLint. So it seems like the overarching message is that, when people have imposter syndrome, they feel inadequate.

So just knowing that, like, the worst that could happen is that you won't get the job or you'll get canned. I guess, if if you do get a job in a place where you feel out of your bounds, that that can be a a big sort of a scary thing for people. Right. But if that's the case, I know that, like, just surround yourself with people that are a bit of a support network.

Yeah. I think I I definitely see that. Yeah. Teaching a boot camp for many years, I see that a Scott, and I think people chalk that up to imposter syndrome being a little bit afraid that you're not as confident to go into situations

And so there's the idea of growth mindset where, lately just with all of the distractions, right, and just everything that's around us all the time. There's so much to distract us.

And then depending on how you crop

How do I avoid anxiety and feel useless I don't know. That's a big message to me JS this the stuff that we do, we're producing things, we're creating things, and even if it's basic, whatever, it's still awesome that we can do it.

of data download on your website. So Sanity has, an entire pipeline for working with your images,

For this episode JS Sanity.

I I think in a lot of cases, it is just low confidence in Right. Their skill set in in whatever it is

Yeah. I I just

a hot spot might be someone's face or a product.

the the the original URL to this library and then call that with that URL that flip that invert.

I just didn't did my best to complete my assignments to the best of my ability

handle this job. Right? And they'll find out eventually and those people are, you know, easier to treat from my perspective. But but it it can look different.

and Google. Google? Oh, okay. Etcetera. And being an SE, software engineer I've been really loving this Wes website lately. I have no idea. It just started popping up, and they have, like, really good advice all the time. So they they TypeScript this JS, first, let your lips part. Make a whooshing sound, exhaling completely through your mouth.

me. And, like, honestly, I wasn't good at math, but

images right on the fly. So you might import, like, a large typing in tweet deck a 100 times a day. And if I log out, then it then I I go, oh, what am I doing? Like, oh, I was sleepwalking going to the social network.

you know, maybe you're not able to do something right now, but we use the term, like, I haven't done it yet. Right? So that's with little kids. Right? So diet,

Apple, Netflix,

Yeah. Yeah. Well and I'm wondering I think there's, imposter syndrome is the idea of I can't talk about it because then other people will find out. Right? The reveal will be will be there. So hearing that you too have struggled with it, you know, you can assume that a lot of really great developers But it's it's been a really fun game, and I highly recommend it, especially, Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And and some of us are more guilty of that than others, but I think the idea of mindfulness,

once they're in it for a couple weeks. And, this is not as scary as I thought it would be and Right. Just anxiety or or

right, where you're assuming something. And there's there's a whole slew of cognitive distortions. I don't need to go through them necessarily,

did what it was asked of me, goes a tremendous distance that, like, you don't want to do it, and you don't feel like it's going to make a difference. It sounds dumb. It seems like, oh, this isn't gonna do anything, and it works so well for me.

like, excellent developers.

even into, like, our our late adulthood.

Right? You're never gonna learn it all, and you're never gonna have every specialty. And if it looks like somebody has every specialty and every skill out there, they know everything. No. Every single person has a weakness in their dev game. Every single developer. Nobody knows

after he left, getting that senior position that he had and then moving on from there. But there's just about every single new job I took, except for maybe 1 or 2, I felt like the job was way above my skill level, Is, like, so paramount. Yeah. And really having that to do list and and sticking to it and eating those frogs and making that the key to there is a big one for me. Yeah. And I don't know if this is part of those, me firsthand being under some extreme stress from really demanding and honestly abusive,

because you see that imposter syndrome just disappear,

in those situations that you know you eventually will hit.

And when you get into that mindset,

People often are asking, how do I deal with increased anxiety during the current situation? I don't know about you guys, but our our tax time got pushed back. So,

image

equals. And then in React, you can pass

and that's super important.

for me, you know, I remember getting my 1st dev job.

and moving more into complicated logic

syntax. That's gonna get you double the free tier. Thanks so much to Sanity for sponsoring.

that that can help you out

And, we did not what do you do? And I just remember feeling like, I am going to get fired from this job. I don't I'm not I do not know what I'm doing here. And sure enough, you know, the man is amazing. He was a great teacher, a great mentor. He didn't expect me to know those things. He taught me so much, and I grew into the role and eventually ended up, So

But I I I started like, I was certainly nervous, but I don't think I had impostor syndrome because I knew, like, if I'm not a good fit, if I'm not good enough, they'll say no. And they did, and and that was fine. And my wife always tells me I'm unapologetically

enough like people working at Fang. Do you know what Fang is? Yeah. Facebook,

and find out that other people feel the same way. Right? So there's that set of imposter syndrome, but I also think that there's just, like, maybe a social comparison or, like, a low self esteem and feeling like, having, like, a certain amount of crackers on your plate and then putting the box away, Right? Not having the box in front of you so that you can just continue to eat.

for, like, a a person or or an avatar or something like that, but then you need to resize it and compress it and whatnot. And the JavaScript library, you can just sort of, like, the example they have is just image source

So

because it has a cool name. Yeah. But it it definitely is

first, have either of you experienced Right. Well and that's the reason why I asked you too if you have, struggled with imposter syndrome because it's important to realize that you're not alone. Right, if you feel that way. And, again, circling back to what we were saying,

imposter syndrome in your career? The the one that is really getting a lot of, Right. Yeah. And, yeah, that, of course, goes without saying a great diet,

that you should really be proud of because people who are not high achievers are not going to feel that way necessarily, and that says a lot about yourself as a as an individual and a developer.

you know, via email or chat or whatever. I had never met him at that point besides on phone, so, we didn't have, like, you know, the kind of rapport we do now as friends.

how to get around that. Like, I have that with my my kids as Wes. Just when we encounter situations where they're they're scared or they they don't think they can do something, like, Lux JS trying to learn how to play hockey right now, and she gets frustrated really easy. And Yeah. We just had to sort of talk her through and, like, you know what? You can get better. You get really good at this. Right. I don't know I don't know how like, how would you tell that to a developer who flip and resize and invert, You know, like,

you don't know what you're doing. You don't know any of the tools. Your boss isn't there.

Yeah. Wait. So tell us about it. What is that like for you? Do you have a headache? their sadness, right, or their depression.

I'm not good at math from being a kid, and I hate it. And in my case, I just will need to work on a side project. I need to design fun. I need to do a tutorial, something like that to just totally switch away, and then I realized, I'm excited about the stuff. It's fun again. I'm building something from scratch. I'm using these new technologies.

confident,

and that those, like, synaptic connections that are forming in our brain are able to develop

What would you say? What are some of your tips

where I feel out of my out of where I should be. Specifically, the big one was when I like, 8 years ago Wes I went to interview at Google.

Right? But but you could take that the other way and say, oh, like, why didn't I get that job?

My my manager and boss at the time, Ben Sheff, he hired me when I really didn't know what I was doing. Like, I was hacking together WordPress templates and stuff. And so then all of a sudden, I got hired for my 1st dev job, and it was building Drupal sites. I'd never seen Drupal. I'd never really written any PHP, considering I was just, like, modifying CSS and HTML within WordPress templates.

Another kind of cool thing is that they have a package that you can npm install called Sanity image URL,

And all all of a sudden, I'm handed a client, not to mention he was actually at a conference the 1st week of my job. So I was like, oh, here's your client. They're a Drupal 6 site or whatever, and,

that maybe other people don't, right, or the things that you've accomplished then that's out of your control right now. You know? What's in your control is that you can take steps and to work through and figure out a solution, situation at all on the podcast? and and realizing what's in your control. I think right Node, the issue of control is really

Absolutely.

a big difference between imposter syndrome and just maybe, like, low self confidence.

and, like, not mess things up. But, I guess, ask a lot of questions would have been the the thing I did, first and foremost. Yeah. So ask a lot of questions and and really just try your best and hold that confidence in yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. What about you, Wes? Have you ever gone through that? Yeah.

is probably so I I don't know what to tell people

Yeah. The jig is up. Right. So they're holding it in. Yeah. Exactly. Right. The jig is up. They're holding it in, and,

and, it's okay if I don't know everything. Right? There's always room for practice and room for development within my skill set.

a YouTube channel that I was actually watching the other day. I've been I've been subscribed to this channel for a while,

I I don't know the specific research. See, this JS, like, the mom brain sleep deprived.

I think that's it for now.

You know, sometimes having to pull all nighters to to work on stuff because the Node just wasn't working. Wes we know JS developers very specifically, there's that, like, joke. It's like, this is not working. I have no idea why this is working. I have no idea why, I don't know if you have anything prepared, Yeah. Absolutely.

about. You know? So it it's different in everybody, and so it's really important to think about and pay attention to when you feel stressful,

As far as the the stressed eating, I know that's a tough one. I think a lot of us can be, like, once you're feeling stressed, thinking about it, like I said, rationally. So thinking about what what specifically is making me stressed.

taking walks,

We're gonna be doing 50% off the,

good stuff there.

exhale

Like, I just I stocked up at the grocery store. I bought, like, 6 box of crack boxes of crackers, and how our brain is not, like, set in stone as we once thought it Wes. Right? That we can constantly change and evolve,

She goes carrots.

Those are 2 really great books if you're, just looking for parenting advice.

breathe in

So,

how I encourage my clients to do it is to really think about Sure.

So this is a really, I think, pertinent topic right now.

health line.com,

just with everything

for,

Then make another whooshing sound and exhale from your mouth for 8 seconds.

but I think some people saw me watching it on an Instagram story and were asking about it. This channel is The Engineering Mindset. It's a YouTube channel that teaches basic

lately.

out your snacks and,

on people I always find it a a little bit weird. Like, I'm like, oh, like, what should I say? How should I dance around it? Should I come on? Yeah. Well, do you find that you, like, know which of your friends

but I invite you to give us a sick pick if you'd like. This is for those of you who this is your 1st episode, sick picks are the things that we think are sick. Courtney, do you want some time to think about a sick pick, or would you just like to to have a sick pick? Well, have you done Sanity Crossing yet? We haven't. Okay. So I have then 2 sick picks, I guess.

Trying to make it a vigorous walk if you can is ideal.

and to not, like, put labels on things and just allow show that you care,

So silent yearly subscription if you wanna sign up for the year as well as,

crackers with, like, baby carrots or something? Yeah. Then then if you're mindlessly snacking, you're at least getting some fiber and beta carotene and all that stuff. Yeah. It's that's actually really good because it makes your mouth taste awful, And it was editing the user transactions

the air should be you should be, like, sucking in. Right? So drawing your rib cage up,

A lot of people are being laid off,

You know, is your face flushed? Right? So think about those things or or browse Twitter, whatever that is.

Cool.

Yeah.

But there's a way that you can play as a 2 player mode, which we just figured out. I don't know. Is there a term for that? Co op. Co op. Okay.

I don't know. Yeah. There there's a a lot of it, for me, was always around deadlines.

if you're looking for kind of an escape during these times.

I used to have a problem when we when my office was carpeted. I used to flip my chair over. I used to just stand up and knock my chair over because it was like, alright. This isn't gonna break the chair. It's carpet. It's not that loud. It's not like I'm damaging anything. Oh, I was never I was never the type to get really that angry about it, but just flipping the chair over always, like, relieved a little bit of that aggression for me. And, like Yeah. I haven't done that in, like, inhaling silently through your nose and count to 4 in your head.

good diagrams.

sometimes Wes it builds up and builds up and builds up,

when we're solving problems, it's really easy to stay in that mindset, well, I can just rip out all of my animations and rewrite them in Framer Motion just for the fun of it, just to learn it. Right? And and that that JS, especially in remote jobs? But there's so many thing, and and there's just an endless amount of things to learn in this industry.

identifying

empathetic But yeah. So that type of breathing is really helpful. I think, obviously, like, taking a break, So sleep, all those things that we've already talked about are just so important.

a boss

why is this error still here? work was only a a few hours this year, and I exported everything. So my Scott delayed, but I don't need it, because FreshBooks made it so easy to do my taxes this year.

it was so dumb. I was editing the wrong file. Of course, it's like,

through your nose silently for 4 seconds, hold for 7 seconds, then whoosh out for 8 seconds.

it's just, like, the kids are it's so calming. I I like playing it myself. It's it's really, really cool. So, if you're looking for iPad apps

And here I've edited this variable, and I'm like, I'm still getting the errors. My code not compiling. I stopped and started. I checked the debugger. I'm like, why isn't this data coming in? And now, you know, all this stuff.

So, So I I asked a a question on I don't know. You need to to be cognizant of

Here's here's what current is. Here's what voltage is. And it does so in such a great way that you can get the the full basics of everything. And then once you get beyond the basics, it can teach you all sorts of things about condensers, chillers, evaporators, That's hilarious. Okay. So, Courtney, what kind of message do you have for people who are having a hard time focusing? I know that I have some focus issues in general, and you give me a lot of good tips on focusing, so I know you have some good information here.

Developers will listen. So developers will listen. Yeah.

stress in your body, like, where you feel it?

and

for coming on the show. Doctor Courtney Tolinski here, and, we hope to have you on again someday soon. Yeah. Happy to be here. Thanks for listening. Yeah. Thanks a lot.

but when you can identify it in your So thank you so much for having me. Awesome. Well, let's get started.

Then

almost every iPad game is awful, whether it's the content, whether it's the, like, links for ads that they put under the kid's fingers and then they touch them or whether like like, our kids would get these apps that they, like, try to, like, make you buy something, and then the kids touch it. And they're like, why isn't it working? And they're like, can we buy this? And it's just a dumpster fire kids' game. So I found this 1 I see that a lot with people developers

Scott, when you take a walk. That's one of the things that I'm always recommending to him, but instead, he kind of, like, digs in, Well, so in that time when he wasn't there and you were kind of holding the reins yourself, what did you do to talk yourself through

it's easy to be in this, like, straight up logical mindset where your brain JS, like, no emotion. It's logic. Logic. Logic. Logic. No emotion. And so,

But, are struggling with the same sense of anxiety and feeling like, you know, I'm not good enough.

engineering in general, this channel JS very popular, 760,000

found out how to chill out a little bit more, but I know that that people are saying, how do you do you avoid lashing out? And They said I wanna deal with burn out or bore out, and I thought bore out was a really interesting idea. The idea that you're just bored with everything, and you can't work on things because you're bored. And that, to me, sounds slightly depressive, like depressive symptom kind of thing to me, but, like, an application that is the application,

HVAC systems, all this stuff that I don't know anything about, electrical and otherwise engineering concepts, silent in for 4, hold for 7, whoosh out for 8.

So level up tutorials.com.

starts off with how

Head on over to syntax.f

blow up the balloon,

but it it breaks these topics down that are are are so relatable to what we're doing in terms of, like, logic and engineering in general that, I love this this channel, and it does a great job of of showing you via diagrams and animations and everything. So if you're interested in learning a little bit about

right, emotionally in your body.

Yeah. That's you, maybe. Yeah. Right. Yeah. You should write that. Developers are not great at communication. No. Communicating.

iPad developer called Tokoboka, and they have,

So, yeah, check it out. Use coupon codes and tax for extra $10 off. That should still work. Yeah. Yeah.

in how it

Everything is 50% off. I imagine it will be that way for at least a few more weeks.

communication. I think a lot of us don't do that because we're uncomfortable with it, and that's a whole another story. But, anyway We should, sorry to interrupt here.

Oh, chef Mike and uncle Mickey taking the taking the lead on this coronavirus having the kids. So, anyways, Toca Boca, check it out. Toca Kitchen 2 is probably my favorite. That's cool.

taking breaks, things like that, and then just kind of broader things to help with stress. Of course, again, exercise,

But it's really fun. You get to have, like, your own little island, Or,

Toca Boca? Oh. Toca Boca. So, like, we got our kids an iPad, and we went down this rabbit hole a couple years ago of realizing

inhale and suck in and then exhale and suck out. So the idea is to breathe the opposite. So when you inhale, and just kind of, like, cramming in snacks. I know Scott is kind of guilty of that sometimes.

If I have a stressful couple days, I wake up or or just get a a wicked headache that, like, no Tylenol or anything can can get away with. It's just, like, the worst headache that I can get.

you, like, forage for things. You fish.

recently, just get at me, and I'll I'll discount you down to the the half off rate depending on like, if it was if you purchased it, like, 2 months ago, then I don't know. But if you purchased it this month, then yeah. Usually what I do JS to say, like, if you bought it in the last couple weeks or whatever and you feel like you got burned, then let me know. Yeah. Your people are pretty good about it. So it's cool. It's like kinda like Black Friday, except the world is falling apart. Yeah. Right. It's actual Black Friday. It's black

then you could do a couple of things. Right? You can just take a break, go for a walk. I think that you find a lot of your solutions, that, things will not get better. Things are awful, and they're not going to get better. And on top of that, there's a loss of interest in the things that you like to do. Right? So if you enjoy coding or,

And they do whole videos that aren't that long. They're like 10 minutes long. Here's how a capacitor works.

That's so good.

My brain right now. No one is judging you.

But, no, it's it's a great book, and there's there's so many, like, little nuggets in there. So if you're looking for a parenting book, I like that one, and then the whole

It's just thinking about those things. I think being mindful is probably the lesson of the day. Right? Just paying attention

pertinent. Just the lack of control that we all are feeling

for your kids while they're home right now, because you need to slam an iPad in their face so they'll keep quiet for 45 minutes so dad can get some work done. Uncle Mickey. Check out. Uncle

an iPad game developer for kids called Toca Boca.

breathing. Can you check that? for impostor syndrome?

I think exercise is huge, and it's something that we totally underutilize.

solving that bug. Right? So there are other things that you can do to help yourself rather than dig in your heels. But the 478 breathing, experience stress in our body. Right? And it's interesting. We think about, like, these basic emotions like anger, sadness, happiness, whatever. We all

you know, there's there's things going on outside and that you need to not

And a lot of times, I have, like, perseverative thoughts where I'm thinking about the same thing kind of over and over. I, like, hyperfocus on what it is that I'm stressed

emotively,

file rather than the user transaction file, which just happened to look very, very similar in terms of layout of the React the component.

My first would be Animal Crossing. We just purchased it for the Switch. I don't know if it's available for other things. The Switch. Okay.

Of course, the dog barks.

Right. Yeah. And that that can get kinda tough.

Right.

very, very good YouTube channel there. Some of the a lot of their videos have, like, 2,000,000 views and stuff. So,

just about everything on the store. So,

Mickey.

release of aggression, and now I don't I just don't have that much aggression anymore. I don't know what it is. I just budget program we got going on here, Wes. That's what's going on.

I'm shamelessly plug all of my courses, so I just put all of my courses on 50% off until when? I don't know. When does coronavirus end? I know a lot of you are at home.

So even like the initial, the electrical engineering basics saying, get this done right now, or you're you're in big trouble.

and then exhale, and you create

we pulled up in our recall here on health line.com. I don't have you ever been to Healthline West? Website's really nice, actually. Scott been on that line before. Yeah. I don't know when this came about, but, WASM, everything. Right? Nobody knows all of the different slang words. So if you feel like you don't know enough, chances are, you know, just as much as a huge percentage of other developers who are doing very excellent work every single day. Not only that, but you are very ahead of the game. If you're listening to this podcast or if you're watching, but you need to be able to keep yourself grounded in the the real world and and realize that, like,

So that is, that's it, really. It's it's

All my ASMR people loving this.

yeah, all those things are really important.

you need to stop doing that. Like, you just need that's not that's not that's not a good to do. So, that was that was one of the things that Wes always my address some things directly.

It's been a really neat and kinda meditative game, and I'm not somebody who's, like, really into gaming. I like Mario Yarn, You know, everyone's just so much better than me. I'm I'm not as good as everybody else. Right? And that's different than imposter syndrome.

which is, like, alternative to how we usually breathe, right right where we,

Everyone, sit back and close your eyes and do this. Next, close your lips,

and noticing and then taking steps to correct the things that you are struggling with. What about, like, replacing

whooshing exhale, That it's in, like, system processes or something. Or Yeah. I'm not gonna say, but it's possible.

recommendations or books. So some of the books that I really like, if you're interested in parenting books,

to be honest, it's

You create, like, a little tent, and you have, like, your stuff in the tent, and you can travel to other friends' islands.

and I bought them for us to last, like, the entire month. And already, Wes, like, 4 of the boxes are gone.

and and Mario type games, but I really like this one, especially, I think, because we had a couple trips planned, and we aren't able to go on any of those trips. So it sort of makes me feel like we're on an island. We're taking our vacation even though we're in our living room on the couch

Courtney, as a, as a guest on the show, we're gonna be doing sick picks. And I,

Taking walks even can be a really solid exercise if if you're doing nothing at all, if you're totally sedentary.

research on how the 4 seven eight breathing is is really helpful with it's called the vagus nerve. It's actually really interesting if you Google that, the vagus nerve, like Las Vegas.

but currently, what's out of your control is right, as he's working.

chomp on some baby carrots. Although Courtney's gonna laugh because she buys me baby carrots, and then I don't eat them. Need them. But I don't eat them Scott because I don't like them, because they're in the drawer, and I don't think about them. And and if I don't think about them, then I don't do anything about them. I gotta it has to be visual. I gotta open the fridge and see the carrots and be like, oh, carrots.

I should I should also say these these iPad apps I recommended, looks like they are available on Android

We're gonna be doing the same thing on level up tutorials.

and so there's a lot of research on how to breathe correctly. So when you inhale, you want to expand your belly like a balloon blowing up, and then when you exhale, Brainchild by Dan Siegel.

basically My sick pick is going to be

Yeah. I I get Yeah. I get headaches.

everything rather than just, like, hyper focused on what you're working on. And and those techniques that you've listed, like going for a walk, are just endlessly, endlessly effective for me.

I know you had a couple of,

we're developers. Right? When you're developing code,

people asking for parenting

And sure enough, it's just something so stupid because, electricity works, and it gives you a nice little thing about circuits and batteries.

archive of all of our shows, and don't forget to subscribe in your podcast player or drop a review if you like this show.

about what are the the things that might make you stressed. So what's an example of something that you might be stressed about? The world falling apart.

than we've used. So, yeah, congratulations. That was good. So, Wes, do you have a sick pick for us? Yeah.

all throughout my body.

So if you're at work thinking

your default systems for checking the things that are basic shut off. You know?

Kindle as well. Oh, nice.

I'm going to sick pick, structured content CMS before. And one thing I wanna spotlight right now is everything around handling images inside of Sanity. So,

and cut their hair and change the color. And there's Coca Cola Kitchen,

and and understanding, like, here are the things that I can control. Right? If you can't solve that bug currently, It's paramount in everybody.

bring up the rib cage. But the 4 seven eight breathing, actually, there's a lot of research In terms of Yep. Or wait. Well, just the the website isn't as good as the app. Oh, I see. Yeah. So then I get frustrated, and I close out of it.

attention right now, the coping technique, is the 4 I think it's 4478

your

and need to keep their skills sharp. A lot of people are just looking for something to to learn in this time that they're they're stuck in their house. So, Wes.

Right. Yeah. So we all should read that book then.

a bunch of different apps where it's good for, like, really young kids as well where they they can do hairstyling

a I had a bug last night, and

And it does so in really, really

which allow you to, like you can cook stuff, and, like, there's there's no, like, endgame. There's no points or anything. It's just it's just doing stuff. It's just styling the person's hair or cooking a dinner,

where where sometimes things just don't work, and it's so beyond you why this thing isn't working. I think I had you've you've experienced I don't know. What's the word I'm looking for? keep that level of motivation up, especially while working from home like so many of us are doing currently?

How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk. Oh, my wife's reading that right now. It's so good. Yeah. It's a really great book. I think it's even if you don't have kids, it's a really great way to understand how to communicate effectively,

8 years or something. I haven't done that in a very long time, but that was like I I remember Courtney having a a chat with me just being like, when working on products that don't appeal to you?

2020.

It hadn't even been a whole week, and he ate 4 boxes of crackers. I well, I mean, clearly, Scott's under a lot of stress like the rest of us, but I was so angry. He ate all those crackers, but he gets into this habit of just kind of, like, mindlessly eating,

experience them, but we experience them differently. Like, have you ever thought about that, Wes, how you experience but maybe I'm just not the right fit for them.

just in the evening instead of being present.

So having, like, that structured work time, I think, really helps along with

just get up and, you know, walk around the office And there's a a host of different other, like, symptoms JS we refer to them that go along with it. So sometimes it's being extremely irritable

and prioritizing that list is really important.

work and break time, I think, really helps to structure it, especially for people who, you know, have issues with focusing.

Yeah. Absolutely.

So, I recommend that a lot for my ADHD clients, but I think that that applies to anybody because a lot of us are kind of feeling ADHD there's a couple of friends who have have have come out and told me. Yeah. But I don't I would assume that there's probably more of my friends that don't even don't even tell me. Yeah. Yeah. So I I think just generally checking in and not putting any assumptions on, like, hey. How's that depression going? Right? Like, nobody wants to be reminded of it necessarily, but checking in and saying like, hey, man. How's it going?

you know, is is the smart way to do that. I think even just logging out of these services is key Yeah. Because it it stops that. Like, I just find myself mindlessly

a period of time and working strategically. So, like, 25 minutes is solid work. Right? And then you take a short break, like, 3 to 5 minutes.

It's always a bummer for us web developers when the the advice is just use the web app because you won't be addicted. It's not as good. No. It's just

So you you wanna tackle those things first, and then below that, having a list of and invite them. You Node, make it a point to reach out to them more, check-in with them, and invite them to things,

Yeah. Well, first of all, if you've got, And then there are other people who do outwardly look really sad and look really tired, But when you go back and look at your accomplishments, it puts it into perspective to say, like, oh, I I really am skilled at so many other things,

Yeah. That's a big one. I really like Brian Tracy's book. Do you know what that book's called, Scott? Yeah. Exactly. And, I mean, we all bring different skills to the table. Right? So if you're struggling with imposter syndrome, I think, Okay. Yeah. And for me, it's just like a sense of tightness, like Vercel tightness one of the things that's helpful is just writing down a list of your accomplishments and the things that you're really proud of, what you bring to the table uniquely

it is for me. I'll I'll I'm the the type who'll do command w, close the Twitter tab, and then command t type t w. And then be, like, wait. What am I doing? I was just there. Yeah. Like, do that over and over again. And,

like, 20 tabs open as you have currently, like, that's that's not ideal. Right? This isn't this isn't even all of the tabs, Cor. This is just some of the tabs. Okay?

Right? So Yeah. And then other good coping skills,

Right? So if you notice that you're constantly on Twitter, and we'll just try and solve it, solve it, solve it. And his brain is not thinking necessarily rationally. He's thinking out of that, yeah, out of that frustration and stress. I've gotten better, though. I used to,

all the other little things that you wanna do. Right? But I think coming up with a list every day, sitting down first thing in the morning, these are the things that I wanna accomplish,

Just use the thing that we're, you know, that we do. That's not as good. Right. Yeah.

but one of the things that I recommend is called the Pomodoro

using that time for the break and then going back and working again for 25 minutes. Right? So I recommend 25 minutes of work, 3 to 5 minute break, and you do that for a period of, like, 3 times. And then after the 3rd work period, then you would take a longer break, like 15 minutes.

But having, like, the designated

Yeah. I don't know what the optimum,

Right? And so I just uninstalled it on my phone, and then I have to physically type it in on my phone and the what would you call it? The format? I don't know. The website? The URL?

And thinking about in that break, what can I use that time for? Is it to go to the bathroom? Is it to get a drink? Is it to browse Twitter? 7. Okay. So keep it to 7 or less.

focus not mindful in terms of our eating I think knowing yourself and being really honest with yourself about it eats away at them because they're not able to talk about it to anyone,

apps that you use, or,

Right? Yeah. It is it is Brian Tracy. Yeah. So his idea is to have a couple of frogs that you wanna accomplish in the day, and those are the things that you wanna tackle first. They're the most important, the source of stress,

And you can use that time to, like, go outside if you can, go for a walk, because they're important cues to let you know that you're feeling that emotion. And, I mean, that seems really obvious. Like, we all know what stress is, but a lot of times, we don't identify it quickly. And when you can pay attention to it in your body, which, you know, is part of mindfulness and why that's so effective and so helpful,

the designated plan every morning.

Beyond that, in terms of focus, just kind of taking care of Vercel, and getting out to do those things that you used to enjoy.

tab to focus ratio is. I don't know if there's such a thing. 7.

I think the next thing we wanna talk about is I I combine these 2 because a lot of people were asking about similar things here, and this is motivation and remote work specifically.

having that hardcore mode on Twitter,

your your habits is really important.

No. Totally. And and I think that's a a big thing because that barrier to entry, you just had a little bit of a barrier to entry there. I know that Thank you. That Wes, you came up with the sick pnpm way faster And just taking care of yourself in those place makes a a big deal. So I think the next Node we wanted to talk about Wait. Hold on. I have I have Node quick question Yeah. While the doctor is in.

Welcome to Syntax. This is the podcast with the tastiest web development treats out there. Today, we've got a guest,

You're listening to Syntax, the podcast with the tastiest web development treats out there. Strap yourself in and get ready. Here is Scott Talinski and Wes Bos.

on the show. She's gonna be talking to us about mental health and web development.

someone that knows a lot more than us. We have doctor

Courtney Tolinski

I got the question about talking about impostor syndrome just about a 1000 times. So I wrote impostor syndrome times a 1000 here because that's how many responses I got about it. And it's funny because no matter how many times you talk about imposter syndrome, it seems like that's such a a big topic. I know I myself and many other people, you know, often deal with these issues.

in general with the current state of the world. So,

But self care is really important.

Then, you know, don't assume anything. Just take them at what they're saying and think about and the reason that it's so powerful is because people valuable in terms of taking care of yourself just on a day to day, but especially for somebody who's depressed.

who is suffering from depression. You say, like, go out and talk to them. Like like, what do you say to somebody who are coming from HTML and CSS

You know, how have you been? Just having, like, a general Yeah. You can also do belly breathing too, and the idea is to, like, expand your belly as you inhale. A lot of us breathe incorrectly,

Totally.

You know, and then I think just encouraging

just to help keep some of those hobbies. And, you know, you can scale back if it's too much to do your normal

5, 6 hobbies, whatever you do.

But, yeah, checking in with your friends if you feel like something's going on or something's not right.

Yeah. You know? And I don't know how I don't think we've ever gotten to this on the show, but I've been on and off antidepressants since my concussion. And I tried several different ones. And,

you know, if you're able to, like, functionally interact

be more vulnerable with you.

then I think that that goes a long way, and people will feel like they can trust you and that they can,

has depression, or is it just, like, a general sense that maybe there's something going on? I would say

So, like, Wes let's say I've got a friend,

and, like, that's I was just like, hey. Just just trying to think of, like, how do you proactively invite somebody out to do something, and, like, also, I know exercise is is helpful as well.

we're we'll talk a little bit about some of that stuff directly, but I think a lot of the concerns people have with anxiety Most of them have, like, or at least the good ones have, like, a hardcore mode. So look for hardcore mode where you literally can't shut it off. I know Focus App for Mac has that where there is no way to shut it off. So, like, if you if you have a hard time shutting those off, you find the hardcore modes and turn them on. It's it's difficult to Can I just say that I figured out how to get around it? I won't tell you how, but The hardcore mode? Me is like, I'm in a hardcore focus mode to do some work. And then the hacker in my mind is like, I wonder how that works. I have control over this computer.

I know I'm not very good at it, but when I am feeling,

exercise, sleep. I mean, those things are so

figuring out what's important to you and then scheduling it and prioritizing those things.

doing my hair, shaving, whatever

Just having, like, that general leading question of, hey. How's it going? Mhmm. I think can, you know, speak volumes.

So let's get into the anxiety side of things because that's a a big part of this as well, Well, thank you so much, and thank you so much to Courtney,

Yeah. But if you extend that interest and genuinely

It's a good point. Yeah. My 1 buddy of mine that said to me, hey. Just wanna go for a run, or you wanna go do the stairs? So, like, in in our city, there's just massive stairs that go

just to help get them out of bed if if they're that depressed. Right? It's a range, of course. So some people are, like, functionally depressed Wes they're able to go to work, able to,

those feelings or or, you know, that sort of flow of life, just getting up and

engage in, you know, their normal day to day life, but, internally, they're not getting the, like, pleasure that they used to out of it.

Scale back to 2 or 3, but Right. Yeah. I did that with Instagram. I have a huge problem of just, like, looking at Instagram but it's not always stuffed with little cars and things, toddler toys.

other people to help reach out to you, and they're your big frogs. Right? Well, that's the term that we use. I don't know if it's an organ or a muscle. Yeah. This is a brain organ. You can Google this. Okay. Well, we refer to it as a muscle, right, in the sense that you can develop your brain. Right? Your brain is constantly changing, and we talk about neuroplasticity

that that has depression? Right? Like, that sucks or oof. Like, that's obviously not not what you should say, but, like,

A lot of people, they're they're afraid to reach out. They don't wanna burden people with their Yeah. Yeah. So if if it's an error like that, then I think, again, just paying attention to how you're ESLint. And if it's something that you can't control at that moment,

up the mountain,

follows around the idea of maybe, like, inadequacy or impostor syndrome or those kind of things. So when I asked this question,

and not just assume that they will take you up on it necessarily.

you know, asking your friends, letting them know and being vulnerable and saying, hey. You know, I'm having a difficult time. It would be really helpful if you, like, checked in on me once in a while if it's that extreme.

you know, over the course of time, it it's funny that you mentioned the, you know, weight gain, weight loss, but some of the antidepressants made me gain, like, a lot of weight. Not to mention inside the concussion, I couldn't work out. I gained, like, like, 15, 20 pounds, and that almost fueled everything more because you just feel worse about yourself. Right. And I I think that tip about doing your self care things is really super important for me, especially.

And just like anything, it's it's a spectrum. Right? So sometimes people who are depressed Yeah.

just feeling sad. Right? It's feeling sad and then it affecting your life to the point where you're not able to function, whether that's going to work So that's my sick pick. And then I wanted to get your thoughts on that, especially in your field because so imposter syndrome is the idea, right, that you you have the skills. You're highly qualified for this job, but like, your success to outside factors. So it was luck. I just got lucky, right, that I got this job, question, you know, and and seeing how they respond. If they're like, oh, you know, things are great. Things are good.

you know, from the outside, But there there's a lot of actual, like, neuro, in your day to day, then scheduling. So making putting it in the calendar as, like, like, an event or an appointment that you would need to make. So things like if if you enjoy golfing. Right? Putting that in the calendar. Every Sunday, I'm gonna go golfing at 11. Right? And and keeping that appointment as if it were a doctor's appointment, really treating that very seriously,

that they

or going out socially with your friends,

or or even outside of coding hobbies? Do you have any general advice for people who and not lashing out on the close ones, I think JS a developer, it's easy to feel inadequate because of

depression is getting in the way of

what it is and and how people experience it?

or just, you know, engaging in your relationships in general. So that's that's kind of a good overview of depression.

And, Right. Well, we I mean, I'm I didn't really get to speak about my background at all. I'm a child and adolescent

and the depression kind of eats away at them.

looks happy

can be like gaining a lot of weight or losing a lot of weight, just a general sense of fatigue and tiredness. So there's a lot of different factors that can look into depression,

they're, like, you know, in a sense, dying inside. Right? But they don't show that to other people

you're a golfer, whatever that hobby is, you all of a sudden find yourself having a really hard time getting out of bed, how we And a lot of times, it's helpful to write it down.

or, like, that they used to love to do, specifically coding

And it's, I think, important to not assume that just because somebody where you're experiencing it. So pay attention to your heartbeat. Right? Is it beating really fast? Are your muscles tight? Are you clenching your muscles?

can be

Yeah. I the biggest thing that I always

because a lot of times they've heard the message of, oh, you you need to be happy, right, or it's not okay to feel sad. Mhmm. So instead, they internalize that, and they don't express Wes, understanding what's in your control,

Yeah. So, I mean, depression is more than just feeling sad. Right? It's it's certainly a sad affect, but it's this sense of hopelessness

specifically for people who are having a hard time enjoying the things

outwardly internally,

that they're not

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